Interview with Ellen Becker, 12/01/2016

UW Oshkosh Campus Stories
Caitlyn Schafer, Interviewer | uwocs_Ellen_Becker_12012016.wav
Campus Stories Oral History Project (UWO Audio Series 51) |

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CS: Caitlyn Schafer is conducting this interview on Thursday December 1, 2016 at 5:00pm with Ellen Becker at 1217 School Street, Oshkosh Wisconsin. Ellen went to UWO from 1964-1968. Ellen, can you tell us where you grew up?

EB: I grew up in Oshkosh.

CS: Can you tell me more about your family?

EB: Uhm in my family I had an older sister, younger sister, and a younger brother. Out of that my older sister went to college for about two years, I think my brother made it through a semester, and my younger sister graduated and got her masters.

CS: Did your parents emphasize education?

EB: Yes, education was very important to my parents, my mother graduated from 1:00high school when she was sixteen so she went to what was called Business College and that was a two-year program and my father only went to school through ninth grade, but education was very important to both of them.

CS: What values or lessons did you learn growing up in your community?

EB: Back in the fifties and sixties life was very different than it is now so basically people lived in the same community their whole lives and generations lived in that community for generations. It was a very care free time, it was a time when you didn't really have to be concerned about where you were or worried that you couldn't walk down the street necessarily, it was probably a much more 2:00laid back time than it is now. It was a time when family and institutions such as school and church were maybe a little more important than some people consider them now.

CS: Describe the home you grew up in.

EB: It was a very middle class home, uhm my mother did not work outside the homes. My father had one job basically his whole life. It was uhm probably what was considered at that time a very ordinary home and a very ordinary life, it wasn't leave it to Beaver but it was just a regular home, regular family.

3:00

CS: Did you move around a lot?

EB: As a family?

CS: Yes.

EB: No, my family lived, when I was born we lived in a house that was a block away from where eventually we moved when I was four and my parents stayed in that home and actually I am living there now.

CS: Can you tell me a little about, a little bit about your life in middle school and elementary school?

EB: Elementary school was of course the neighborhood school, you walked to school, you didn't get a ride to school. Uhm it actually was the same building that my grandfather had gone to school in. Then they tore it down the year I left but uhm middle school was not middle school at that time, middle school was 4:00junior high, so middle scho- junior high was seventh through ninth grade. And then high school was only three years. Uhm middle school, elementary school was just I mean you had your class room, you didn't go to other class rooms. It was a very very old school, like I said, we had a gym that was probably the size of… smaller than an ordinary classroom, so you really didn't have gym. Uhm now you know people talk about having the arts specialist and the music specialist. We for music we listened to programs on the radio, on the radio Wisconsin public radio and uhm that was music (laughs). Art came I think once a month. Junior high was similar to what junior high, middle schools are now. You went to 5:00different classes. You had to take at that time was called Home Ec and only girls took it, boys didn't take it like now for family and consumer education. Boys took industrial arts, girls took Home Ec. Uhm then scho- you know different elementary schools were put together, so structurally wise it was very much what middle schools are today.

CS: What subjects grabbed your attention?

EB: I've always enjoyed math, and I've always enjoyed history, geography. I would say those were the most. I have never liked Phy Ed, I can't say Home Ec (Laughs). I liked music, I was always in choir, I really enjoyed that. I was fortunate that school came easy for me.

6:00

CS: Is that why you liked math?

EB: I think so, I think so. Mhmm. I could never spell, so and I learned, I learned how to spell when I became a teacher. And then I, because when I went to elementary school you didn't learn phonics. I don't know if that helped me or not, but spelling was always my bone of contention.

CS: And you said you liked music, so did you ever want to do a job involving music?

EB: No, I was never good enough to do anything like that (Laughs).

CS: Did you always know early on that you wanted to be an elementary school teacher?

EB: Yes, I can't remember a time when I did not want to be a teacher. I always wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. I did not end up being a kindergarten teacher where I taught first grade and second grade but I was certified to teach 7:00kindergarten. And I can remember like in ninth grade you had to write a paper about what you wanted to be and of course I wrote it about being a kindergarten teacher and a lot of people had no idea and it was just what I was always going to be.

CS: So did you start thinking about college in ninth grade, or did you always think about going to college?

EB: I guess I would have to say I can't think of a time when I didn't think I would go to college. When I was growing up there basically was three areas that a female would go into. You could go out and be a secretary, I wasn't going to do that. You could be a nurse, there was no way I was going to do that, or a teacher. So kind of process of elimination. So no, I always planned on going to college.

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CS: Did you always consider going to UWO or did you consider other places?

EB: There was no choice, my family could not afford anything else then going to UWO. I lived at home, I uhm, that's all we could afford.

CS: What do you remember about your first weeks at UWO?

EB: I can't say I have any particular memory. I think in many ways because of living at home uhm I didn't have to get used to living on campus, living in the 9:00dorm, going to a facility to have your meals. I had friends from high school who were also going to school at UWO. Uhm and so in many ways it was just a continuation of high school. So nothing, I can't say I went there with, with you know, trepidation, or I went there with any kind of concern that I wasn't going to be able to find where I needed to be. The campus was a lot smaller at that time so I don't have any definite memories of first weeks of school.

CS: Can you tell me how scheduling worked back then?

EB: Very different then the way scheduling is now. First there were no computers and Albee gym was where everything large was held there was no Kolf at that 10:00time. And they would set, every department would set up tables. On a piece of paper beforehand you wrote down five, six different schedules. Being an education major, a lower elementary education major we actually were given a paper that said you should take these classes this semester. I'm sure they divided it in half somehow, you will take these classes than the next semester. So you wrote up sample schedules, you got in line, as long as the classes were open that you wanted that fit your schedule, great. If they didn't then you started all over again.

CS: Did you have to take general education classes first and then go into your education courses?

EB: There were requirements for the university just as there are now. You had to 11:00have, you know, English, you had to have a history, you had to have a science. Uhm you started with a general education class and probably though because at that time we had just changed from being considered Oshkosh Teachers College, and I think while I was at Oshkosh the name of the school probably changed three times. We were Oshkosh State College, we were Oshkosh State University, we were never the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh at that time. But we did become a university in those four years and so being in education it might have been by already second semester sophomore year you were starting your methods classes.

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CS: Uhm speaking of methods classes currently you have practice exams, for example like the math majors have practice exams for teaching, did you have overall practice exams for big ideas?

EB: Not really, you had your methods classes, so you had math methods, you had science methods, you had social studies methods, art methods, Phy Ed methods. And the only like proficiency tests you had to take was one for handwriting. Otherwise no, there it was just kind of built in. And also at that time you have to know that uhm teachers were in very high demand. So, you did not have to apply to the school of education. You went in and you declared it your major and 13:00you were automatically in the school of education right from the very beginning.

CS: So you didn't have to do anything to get in to it?

EB: No (laughs). Except you know I had decent grades. No you didn't have to apply to the school of education.

CS: Were there any general education courses that just were not your favorite or very challenging?

EB: Not so much general education ones, uhm there were, everyone who went to a state school and at that time if you were a Wisconsin resident and you applied to go to a state school you were automatically accepted. So, it isn't like now 14:00you have to wait for your letter to see if they accept you or not. You were just accepted. That didn't mean they had to keep you (laughs) if you didn't have decent grades. That's why my brother only lasted a semester. But you were automatically accepted and if you went to a state school everybody had to take Wisconsin history and conservation. And conservation you hoped you could get out of it that you passed. So if you could get a C you were doing well. And it was in a pit in Halsey Science and you sat alphabetically and the instructor would call on two or three people every day to answer the questions. So, you knew sometime along the way you were going to be on the hot seat. And it was better 15:00to get it over with sooner than to have to keep worrying about it (laughs).

CS: Can you tell me a little bit about the core education classes? Did you have to like take one for every subject?

EB: Yes, like the methods classes we are talking about now. Yes, and if you wanted to be certified to teach kindergarten you had to take kindergarten methods as well. So, if you think about all the different areas that are taught in elementary school which is basically everything. You had a methods class for each one of those.

CS: Did you have to have a minor?

EB: Yes, and my minor was library science because I worked at the Oshkosh public library so it kind of made sense. There were things I already knew about a library. And uhm so that is why that was my minor.

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CS: Overall what kind of student were you?

EB: Probably not as good as I could have been. But I think most people would say that. Uhm as I mentioned earlier basically education came fairly easy for me. I know a lot of people would say well those methods classes were so simple. You know if you were an education major you did not have to work as hard as maybe a business major would have had to work. Yeah, they were boring and so it maybe wasn't, if it was what you wanted to do as now, if it is something you are interested in you are going to do better than in something you don't care about.

17:00

CS: Were there any professors that you really liked or do you remember?

EB: Can't say there was any one in particular who stood out, no.

CS: Uhm let's talk about student teaching a little bit, did that work the same as it does today?

EB: When you student taught and you either did it, at that time education was, could be a four-year program, if you were finishing school in four years. Now I know that education is a five-year program. There was no practicum as there is now that people do when there maybe a junior so they don't continue if they find out if they really don't care for education. So, your semester that you student taught you had two six week, no you had two eight week sessions. And would that 18:00be right? A semester is four and a half months would be 12… fourteen weeks. So, it was two six week sessions and then before you had your first placement you had kind of like an introduction to student teaching where there were some things you had to do. Uhm your placements were if you wanted to teach kindergarten, one of your placements had to be in kindergarten and uhm at that time on campus there was what was called campus school. Which is Swart now. And it was a regular elementary school. And if you, I needed to teach, I needed to 19:00do my student teaching in Oshkosh because my family basically only had one car. So, I would not have had transportation to go out of town. I did a second-grade student teaching assignment first which was at campus school. You had your class room teacher, there was usually a person who was usually working on their masters and was going to school full time so they were in the room, and you had two student teachers. So in a classroom of at the most twenty students you had four adults that were there all the time. My second student teaching assignment was actually down the street from where I lived, and that was my kindergarten one. And at the time kindergarten was a half day program, so you had a group of 20:00morning kindergartners and a group of afternoon kindergartners. Since it was in my neighborhood and I did know some of the children who were in the, the lady I was student teaching with said to them "Now you maybe know her as Ellen but in the classroom you must call her Miss Becker."

CS: Did you enjoy the kindergarten one more than the other for student teaching?

EB: Probably, I did because that's what I was hoping to do. Although I did end up, when I did graduate teach second grade. So, I think because it was something that I never had thought about. It isn't that it wasn't that difficult but it was different then what I was hoping to eventually do.

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CS: If you wanted to could you have done both six weeks in kindergarten?

EB: No, you had to have two different ones.

CS: Was that just so you were more….

EB: I think so, I think so that you had an idea of different grade levels and when I went to Oshkosh because teachers were in such demand your certification was very narrow when you graduated. If you did not do the kindergarten component then your certification was one through three, mine was K3. So, I was called the lower elementary major. Now people have you know K6, K8, very different, they need to have such a broad certification because jobs are scarcer.

CS: You said that if you were a female you had basically the three options.

EB: Yes.

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CS: So, were there many males at all in education?

EB: There weren't a great deal in lower elementary, you know of course there were in secondary. As you got into a specific subject area. There were more in upper elementary, people who were certified to teach four, five, and six. You did have, you know I am not saying there weren't any in lower elementary but at that time to have a man teaching kindergarten, first, or second grade would be very unusually.

CS: Would you say then you connected a lot with people in your major, they were mostly females, like is that were most of your friends came out of?

EB: Yes and no, uhm I think you did have a lot of the same people in your classes. Just because you know if you followed the schedule that the university 23:00suggested you do that you do these classes this semester and those... Well there were a lot of people who had that same one. Of course, you weren't all in the same section of it. So, you did have a lot of the same people over and over and over in your classes, but I also joined a sorority and that then expanded the social group that I got to know.

CS: You lived at home, so did you still feel like you were a true part of the sorority even though you didn't live in the house?

EB: Yes, I think that was not an issue that much. I think you maybe felt less as 24:00part of the general campus life then a smaller group like a sorority. We were considered the "townies", which were different than the people who lived on campus.

CS: Were the sorority activities similar to today?

EB: Since I'm not really up to date on what they do now, back in the sixties there was a street in town called Titan Court. One side had, they were all like apartment buildings. One side was sororities and one side was fraternities. So, those were the houses you didn't have a house like people now will have a old house that they have turned into their sorority or fraternity house. People basically were all on Titan Court. You had a social aspect to sorority, 25:00fraternity where you had parties with other sorority and fraternities at least once a month. You also though, grades were important because sororities and fraternities, Greek life at the time was grade point was important and the Greek organizations were ranked by your total grade points. You did philanthropy things so, maybe some people would have considered it more social than anything else, but also in the sixties it was just something people did. For many people it was just considered a part of going to college, more than it is now.

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CS: So, you would say it is definitely bigger than it is today?

EB: I'm going to say it was and like in the campus newspaper probably every week there was a page that was called Greek life, so they told things that were going on sororities and fraternities. The local newspaper, The Oshkosh Northwestern would carry articles about the sororities and fraternities. Homecoming, there was a big parade. You had your float and the sororities and fraternities would not only have a float but you would march in your parade. You sort of had a uniform, you have your official outfit that was for your sorority and you know, you were a part of the homecoming parade.

CS: Since you said that grades were important for being in the sorority did you 27:00guys study together?

EB: No people didn't do that, well no I shouldn't say that. I didn't, I'm thinking the people who lived in the sorority house did that more because they were right there in close proximity to each other. Again in the sorority you would have many people in different majors. Living off campus I would say the majority of my studying was at home.

CS: Have you stayed in touch with anyone in your sorority?

EB: No

CS: Where did you spend most of your time on campus?

EB: When I wasn't in class and of course living off campus you tried to scheduled your classes as close to each other as possible so that you didn't 28:00have to spend a lot of time on campus. Time that was spent not in class, probably most of it was in the union. I don't know if it's called the union anymore or not. But I mean that's where, if you're going to be there over lunch that's where you went and had your lunch. Very good grilled cheese sandwiches at that time. Actually, that's where I learned to drink coffee. I had coffee and grilled cheese sandwiches and onion and garlic potato chips (laughs). They also had good barbeques or sloppy joes whatever you want to call them. So, you know, sororities and fraternities would have a table. So, you knew there would always be someone there you knew that you could sit with. But I had friend of course that were not in the sorority and you know you weren't compelled to sit with 29:00them accept for the semester you were rushing, you were just joining the sorority. So, I would probably say, not saying that I never went to the library, and I did, maybe not as much as I should have but in the union.

CS: Currently we can take exams in the library, was that…?

EB: No, you only took exams in your class rooms, even your finals.

CS: Did you have a different library, not Polk?

EB: It was called Polk but it was smaller, it only had two floors. I don't know if there were meeting rooms at that time really. It was going to be expanding because it was too small for the campus at that time. But on campus at that time as I mentioned earlier, the campus was much smaller. So if you think Algoma Boulevard basically everything on the campus boarder that street. All the 30:00buildings, you didn't have Kolf, you didn't have, whatever that building is (Sage), Sage you didn't have at that time, Clow was the newest building. There was no school of nursing, that wing wasn't there. Now there is the Alumni center, that's the big building, the welcome one. There's that student activities building, whatever that is on the other side of the tennis courts, that wasn't there.

CS: Was the theater building there?

EB: No, that came shortly, couple years or so after. So, if you think about where the dorms are that start, where Lincoln school is, which is used as the 31:00child center. Of course, there was nothing like a daycare. From that too where the performing arts center is now, just within that long block and a part of that was always dorms. The old dorms were always there, but there were hold houses that were used as classrooms. One of them was used for music classes and had a lot of pianos in it, so if people needed to go and practice. As a kindergarten, wanting to have certification in kindergarten I didn't have to know how to play the piano but I needed to know how to pick out a tune. At that time kindergarten students did not go to specialist, so any music that 32:00kindergarten students had was the teacher doing that.

CS: Was that the same for gym class?

EB: Right, well you had your Phy Ed methods. And remember we are talking about kindergarteners only went to school for half the day so that made a big difference.

CS: So, did that not have the specialty classes every day?

EB: No, never. Kindergarten did not have specialist (laughs).

CS: Living off campus, parking must have been a joy.

EB: No because as I mentioned early my family only had one car. So, my way of getting to school was riding the city bus. I always scheduled the earliest class 33:00I could, if it was early enough my older sister did have a car and worked within the general vicinity of the university, she could drop me off. Otherwise I rode the bus, that's how I got to school and got home. Unless I wanted to walk.

CS: You mentioned you worked at the library, what exactly did you do there?

EB: I worked in the children's room, and you did everything. At that time, you check out books by stamping, you had a piece of paper and a date and you stamped the date on it. That changed when as I worked there, I worked there in high school and college. Then eventually it got to a machine and you put a little paper in it that had the due date on it. You shelved books, you mended books, I 34:00don't think they mend books anymore, I mended books which was at times it was just putting tape on to reinforce the spine, the back of the book, otherwise you would resew the book. We had to do something that was called reading the shelves which was making sure the fictions books were in alphabetical order that there are supposed to be, nonfiction books were in order by their dewy decimal system number, straightening them up. At that time since there were no computers there was something called the card catalog which was a big long drawer and in that card catalog alphabetically by author, by subject, by the name of the book. There was a little card so when new books came in all those cards had to be filed in the card catalog. The people who were not librarians who worked at the 35:00library were called pages (laughs) and so we could slip the cards in the card catalog and then the librarian would come back and check it over but at least that initial part was done. So, you did a little bit of everything.

CS: Was there story telling?

EB: There was but since I basically worked after school that was not something that I ever had to do. At that time the children's room was only opened till six at night, you couldn't keep those kids out late (laughs).

CS: Were there any other activities that you joined besides the sorority?

EB: There were things that I did, I can't say that there were clubs that I 36:00joined or anything. In high school and in college I always enjoyed going to the football games and the basketball games. There would be Friday nights in the union, there was usually some kind of musical presentation if it was people from campus singing or doing whatever. So, I did things, but I wasn't involved club wise.

CS: Did you go to the basketball and footballs games every week?

EB: If there was a home game I probably was there. A good friend of mine whose father worked on campus, was in the geology department. He was the faculty 37:00representative to the athletic department and so basketball games I would always be invited to go along and because of his position it was free (laughs). When I was a senior in college we had a very very good basketball team. Now Albee gym is not the biggest in the world and games would be standing room only. You could only open the doors, you know, because the ball would go out and of course there was fire codes you could only get so many people. People would stand out in the hallway and kind of peak through, and faculty had their own area that was reserved for them. So my friend and I would sit in the faculty area and the team 38:00was good enough, now we always here about the big dance for the division one NCAA. Oshkosh at that time was not part of the NCAA they were a part of the NAIA. They also had a nation tournament, it was held in Kansas City and Oshkosh did go when I was a senior. The game to go went to two over times and was won on a last second shot, so it was pretty exciting. I was fortunate enough, my father had a cousin who lived in Kansas City. Now my family didn't have a lot of money but they were able to buy me a plane ticket. So, a friend and I went to Kansas 39:00City, because we made it to the finals, we were one of the four, the final four. My father's cousin and his wife allowed us to stay with them, bought us our tickets for the tournament. We lost though Friday night, we did get to play on Saturday, at that time you would play for third place and they ended up in third place. It was pretty exciting just to go.

CS: Was the football team not as good?

EB: The football team was fine, it just happened to be the time of the basketball team. Oshkosh always had good baseball teams, baseball was always a big sport, it was just not one that I was always interested in. I did have a friend who I had gone to high school with and did play football for Oshkosh and 40:00was the first person from Oshkosh to be drafted by the NFL. He didn't make it (laughs) he got hurt but he was drafted.

CS: Were there any women sports?

EB: No there were no women sports at that time in high school or in college. In high school, you had something that was called GAA, which was the Girls Athletic Association and they played half-court basketball. In college, there might have been clubs but no sports was just men.

CS: Was it shortly after that women started to play?

EB: No that didn't come in until the seventies. It probably, you know a good ten years later. I know my oldest niece happened to be in high school and she 41:00graduated in 1980 so she started in 1976 and that's just when about girls' sports started.

CS: Were there any major campus issues, political, cultural, educational?

EB: Not at that time they all came just a few year later because that's when the protest for Vietnam and we always had minority students but the big minority boycott came later, the early seventies more.

CS: Is that Black Thursday?

EB: Yes.

CS: So, wrapping your college experience did you have to fight for a job, because they were in high demand?

EB: No at that time school districts would come to campus. They were in Dempsey 42:00hall which was the administration building but also a classroom. They would come and it would be posted that a school district was going to come on a certain day, be there between certain hours. They were looking for teachers and certain grade levels and you just sign up to go to an interview. The majority of people after the interview would be offered a contract, so you had your choice basically.

CS: And what was your contract?

EB: I ended up teaching in Menasha, second grade. There weren't a lot of kindergarten openings anywhere. I was offered the contract, you didn't sign it right away but that was what I chose. I taught second grade for twelve years and 43:00then I taught first grade for twenty-four.

CS: So, when you graduated college, you were already happy because you had a job, was it still like a big weight lifted off your shoulders?

EB: Well again because it was so different for teachers at that time, there probably wasn't anybody unless they couldn't make up their mind on where they wanted to go who didn't have a job when they graduated. So it was just kind of a continuation, like I said going to college you didn't have to wait to see if you were going to get a letter of acceptance you just knew you were going so it was like okay, you knew if you were in education you would have a job.

CS: Education had it pretty easy then.

44:00

EB: (laughs) At that time because of the population explosion, very few districts were not looking for teachers. We are talking about schools were being built so people, districts were looking for five, six, seven elementary people plus secondary people.

CS: Do you feel that your college classes prepared you enough to be comfortable teaching?

EB: I would say so, you know you didn't go in thinking you knew everything under the sun of course. But I felt comfortable, I felt that I more or less knew what I was going to do. I was fortunate enough to go into a system where there were a 45:00lot of teachers who had been at the school and were very helpful. At the end of my first year. I had thirty-two students my first year of teaching.

CS: That's a big class.

EB: Yes, but classes now are getting back to being bigger because of Act ten and you know just teachers' unions not being as strong as they were at one time. Class size is not something that can be negotiated anymore. You probably had, in the school I taught at we had two of every class. K through sixth grade in the building at that time. Then probably the third year I was teaching we had three 46:00second grades but at the end of my first year one of the kindergarten teachers was very complimentary that she said that people would not have guess you were a first-year teacher that things had gone so smoothly she thought in my classroom.

CS: Since you had thirty-two kids your first year why weren't there three second grades?

EB: Because I'm thinking that when we went to three second grades the sixth grade had moved out into the junior high because they had built a new middle school, junior high thing. So, then there was room to move them out which opened 47:00two classrooms, whereas before there was no room. There was a new elementary school that had opened the year I started teaching and that still didn't alleviate enough. I never had a class that big after that. By the end of my teaching career in Wisconsin we had what was called the Sage program. I always worked in a school that was considered low economic school. So, it was in a poor section of town. So, my last year I had fifteen kids because if you were a Sage school you could not have more than fifteen students.

CS: So, your first year was the biggest (laughs).

48:00

EB: My first year was the biggest (laughs) and of course when you never had anything else you don't think, it's just how it is. You did everything, yes, we had specials, we had music twice a week, we had Phy Ed twice a week, we had art once a week so you didn't have to teach those. You did have to do your own Phy Ed on the other days. But there was no collaboration done between myself and the other person teaching second grade. It was very self-contained.

CS: Did you like it that way or did you wish they were like…?

EB: Well of course when you're doing that your first year or two you don't know any different. Once I had a different teaching partner and started doing things with another person and collaborating and you know you came up with a lot of 49:00different ideas of you know one person was maybe going to teach the social studies to both groups and one person was going to do the science to two groups and you switched classrooms that way. That was good, it made things very interesting, it also, you really got to know all the students at a grade level not just your classroom.

CS: So overall what are your thought about UWO today?

EB: I had had a professor one of my last, either junior or senior year, who said that since Oshkosh was considered a teacher's college that was how it got 50:00started that's basically why people went to school there. The majority of students on campus were education majors and people did come from all over the state, it wasn't just people in the surrounding area, people came from northern Wisconsin, Milwaukee and even Madison you know who didn't want to go to a huge school. Although Oshkosh was always one of the bigger campuses, population wise for state schools. This man said that you know, you think of Oshkosh and yeah okay that's no big deal going to school here he said but out in the education community across nationwide Oshkosh was considered the Harvard on the Fox. That 51:00it had a very good reputation for developing teachers. So, I went to the Harvard on the Fox (laughs).

CS: What advice would you give current students?

EB: I would say don't just be concerned about your classes. Yes, it is important to get good grade and it's important to do well in school but let yourself enjoy your years on campus. Go to things, you know, if you like plays, if you like music. I was in choir when I was in college. Just because I liked singing, I 52:00wasn't the best person. They had a women's choir and a more of an acapella, fancier mixed choir. I wasn't in that I was in the women's choir. Do things like that, go to sports activities. There must be some sport that you are a little interested in that you would go and watch that team play and follow your teams. Go to the union, go to, you know, if they are. A friend of mine was into photography and she submitted a picture for there was a photography competition and she actually happened to win it. Go and look at those things, so don't just 53:00go to campus and be locked into going to class and only being concerned about your grades and leaving. Do some of the more social things on campus or that are included as things that you could enjoy as part of your college life, your university life.

CS: Do you have any final thoughts?

EB: I think anyone who has the opportunity to go into continuing education and it doesn't necessarily have to be a school like Oshkosh but don't think that 54:00when your done with high school your done learning. Expand your horizons if you want to get kind of sloppy about it. Enjoy that time because once you leave school and you go out into the work world you'll realize that you know there were some good things about being in school. Yes, it is hard and there are days where you say why am I doing this and I'm going to quit, but nothing in your life will ever be as in some ways carefree as those years that are spent going to school. If you can do it continue going to school. Continue trying to better 55:00yourself with education. I would encourage all of my nieces and nephews who I have been very fortunate have done that. I happen to be in my generation, in my family I was the first person to graduate from college. I had cousins who graduated after me, I had a sister who graduated after me but I was the first person in my generation to graduate from college. I had an older cousin who went to nursing school which of course was very difficult, that wasn't for me. Don't think that you can't do it, even if you can't do it full time. Do something that 56:00is more than high school but enjoy it when you're there don't just have your nose to the grind stone (laughs) are you getting that?

CS: Yes, well thank you for your time.

EB: Well you are very welcome is there anything else that you need to ask me at this point.

CS: No I am good.

EB: Great!

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