Interview with Janet Alley, 04/23/3017

UW Oshkosh Campus Stories
Erika Rismeyer, Interviewer | uwocs_Janet_Alley_04232017_uc.mp3
Campus Stories Oral History Project (UWO Audio Series 51) |

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ER: Today is Sunday, April 23rd. Time is 2'o'clock, and we are here today in Sage Hall on the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh campus. My name is Erika Rismeyer, and I will be interviewing Janet Alley as part of the Campus Stories Oral History Project. So, we'll start out with a simple question: where did you grow up?

JA: I grew up in Fontana, WI, a very small town on Lake Geneva. So, it was very - kind of a tourist-y town.

ER: Mmhm! Um, so yeah, tell me about the community or neighborhood you grew up in. Like, what was it like in terms of race, ethnicity, general socioeconomic status?

JA: Well, it was all white. At the time, not so much anymore. Um, probably everyone was middle class. We had five children in my family. My best friend, they had seven. That was a lot. Um, most people had around three. Um, midde class. Very safe, we could play outside. We didn't have - we never had to lock 1:00our doors, we never locked our cars. A good place to grow up. We had good clean fun, um, everybody kind of watched out for everybody else.

ER: What types of work would you say people in your neighborhood did?

JA: Well, most of the women did not work when I was young. My mother did; she worked as a secretary for the school psychologist and then went on to work many years as a clerk in the post office. Other people's moms, most of them, if they worked, had just a part-time job. Like, waitressing or in the library, things like that. There weren't any businesses. When I was in the eighth grade they built a really nice resort - the Abbey - which is, that employed a lot of people. Waitressing, cooking and that. But other than that, you know maybe in the dimestore or something like that.

ER: Um, did the people you grew up around typically go to college or did they kind of just stay in town and continue to work?

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JA: People my age?

ER: Yeah.

JA: Um, I would say... maybe 30% went to college. A lot of them never finished.

ER: What were your parents and other family members like? Did they go to college?

JA: No, my mother's - that would have been a dream for her. She was the first high school graduate in her family. Her sisters couldn't - in those days, where she lived, they didn't have - high school was a privilege. And if you weren't going to college you went to a trade school which is like today's technical schools. But it was at the high school level. So she was the only one to graduate. But then World War II happened and my parents were both in the Coast Guard. So that... my dad's plans had been to go to Brown University in Providence, and my mom was hoping to go too, somewhere. And they never did. So they were just thrilled that three of us... three out of five of us went to college!

ER: So some of your other siblings went as well?

JA: Yes.

ER: Um, so, your family - did they encourage you or like the idea of you wanting to continue on to higher education, or did they kind of frown upon it?

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JA: My mother and father - my dad was very intelligent and my mom was very in favor of furthering your education as far as you could go. They didn't push us. My sister was a secretary and then later a computer operator and did customer service for a company, and they didn't care. You know? She was - that's what her path was, and so they didn't push us or anything but they encouraged it.

ER: They liked it.

JA: Yes!

ER: Um, what was it like growing up in your house?

JA: Well, it was kind of like "Leave It to Beaver," if you've ever seen that TV show. We had a cat and a dog, sometimes two cats. Um, just a normal growing up. We stayed close to home, played in the neighborhood. Sunday afternoon we always - well, Sunday we went to church then we'd have a big lunch after church. And, um, my dad came home. He worked as an eletrical engineer, and we had dinner when he was ready. (laughs) When he came home. And, um, we were active in community 4:00activites and at school. My brothers both played baseball and softball, and we did a lot of - we all had several sports that we did. So, we lived in between two golf courses so everyone except me was a good golfer.

ER: Um, so what type of background did your parents come from? I know you said they both were in WWII.

JA: Mhm! My mother's parents were from Sweden and her oldest two sisters were born in Sweden. So, my mother was the fifth of five children. And um, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people. If I could change anything in my life it would be that I could have met my grandparents. Just, really great, nice people. But they lived out in Massachussetts. And my dad was from Rhode Island. And, his parents were more... not lower class, but not quite as well-off, you know? They kind of had to pinch pennies and stuff, and, but they were very, very intelligent people. And he was really - he skipped like three grades. So, he was really 5:00smart. And then I have three brothers and a sister. Two of my brothers are really super smart, and one like, one's a genius.

ER: Yeah.

JA: Yeah.

ER: The intelligence gene got passed on!

JA: He was in grade school and he'd help me with my high school math.

ER: Oh my gosh! That's crazy. Um, so did your family try to impart any values on you?

JA: I - I really don't think they did. I think they just lived. They had good values themselves, they had a lot of influence on teaching us responsibility with money and things like that, and living - not borrowing money and things like that. But as far as morals, I think the community was all on the same plate. It's just the way things were; we were moral people. And there wasn't a lot of bad values anywhere. Until a little later. (laughs)

ER: Um, so do you think your neighborhood changed much while you were growing up? Like, compared to your neighborhood now how do you think community has 6:00changed over the years.

JA: Oh, well, yes. Well, because of it being a resort area and because the whole Lake Geneva area is resort area it's changed a lot over the years. Especially because of winter sports. When I was young, nobody - no tourists came in the winter. But then when they got snowmobiling, skiing and all that other winter stuff, (unclear) festivals, they - the tourists started coming year round. And the homes on the lake are mostly owned by summer residents only, so the whole area has gotten wealthier. And when I go back to my neighborhood the cute little cottage-y houses are gone. People have bought them and just torn them down and built these big monstrosities, and they'll have these like, new townhouses that are five times more expensive than anywhere else! It just - it makes me sad. Because to me it's lost it's cute and quaint - it's quaintness.

ER: I can see, yeah, especially because it's so tourist-y and on the lake and... I've been to one of the resorts on the lake, and...

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JA: When my grade school principal retired he even made that part of his speech. He even said, you know, people are moving into our community, and they don't have the same values. They're very, very wealthy, they're very, very influential. And their children are not as well behaved. And, you know, he just saw the big change over the years.

ER: Um, so what would you say the schools that you attended before college were like? Like, your teachers, the subjects, other students. Did they offer like, a lot of sports and extracurriculars at your high school?

JA: High school did, but it was mainly for boys. So, girls didn't - I never took Home Ec. and I wish I would have, but I would have loved to take Woodworking. It never occured to me to even ask! Girls just didn't do that. I would have loved to take some kind of shop class. Later in years I took, I took at the technical school, an automechanic, just like to learn to change my oil and stuff like that? And then, by then it was normal! But when we went it was not normal. And 8:00we didn't have, I think, the only girl's sports they had at the time that was, uh, you know, where you played other schools, was golf and tennis. There was no gymnastics, you know? We had a club, but we couldn't compete with anybody. You know, we did gymnastics for three weeks and then we did volleyball for three weeks and then we did track for three weeks, but there was no women's track team.

ER: You could never compete.

JA: No. And it was still very, very strict rules in high school. You had to wear dresses; you couldn't wear pants. Everyone dressed in dresses and you had to have your bangs above your eyebrows and -

ER: So that was the - through elementary, through high school you had to do that?

JA: Yes. Mhm, so when I went here I went hog wild. (laughs)

ER: Um, was school important in your family or community? You said a lot of your siblings were intelligent, so I thought... JA: It was very important. I was more of - of the five, I was probably the more rebellious of them all. I just - I didn't like all the rules. But really, we couldn't do anything about it. You know, 'cause my parents - it was sort of like, if you're in trouble at school then you did something wrong. You know? So it wasn't like - and that's how most 9:00of the parents were in those days. It wasn't like you were going to get away with something.

ER: Um, what were your goals as a young person? When did you begin to think about college, or how did you view higher education as you were growing up?

JA: I think I always thought I would go to college. I wanted to be married and have children, and that - that's disappointing to me that that never happened. I really wanted, um, my passion is traveling, and I love children, and I really wanted to major in something that would kind of... help me reach those goals. And so teaching was kind of good with all the summers off and stuff. I thought I could travel a lot. But, yeah I always thought I would go to school, but traveling is just really the thing I love to do.

ER: Um, you said there was a lot of tension nationwide due to the Vietnam War. Do you think that impacted some people's decisions or views on higher education? Like, them maybe going to the war instead of like, continuing on?

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JA: Because at that time they started the draft. Which means you got picked on your birthdate. And it happened here when I was in the Union. And that was on the news the night they were going to pull. They pulled it by date. So, they pull one date up. They had every date of the year in a bowl, and every time they'd pull a date that was the next number that would be called. So, if they picked April 1st anybody with that birthdate, you're going first.

ER: So they just had to get up and leave then pretty much?

JA: Well, they - we watched it on the news and then the next day... well, I was in the Union and some guy was number. He picked his chair up and threw it at the television. And so, the next day people - and if you were number 300 or more, you knew you probably wouldn't have to go. So... and we hopefully never have to have a draft again. At least now there's people going to the military because they want to. But, and if you got in any trouble or anything like that, you could get, um, well... like, when the black students riot - well, it wasn't really a riot, but when they had their protest their draft status - as soon as 11:00they were kicked out of school their draft status changed. So, you could hide by going to school before the draft. You could - if you were married you didn't have to go, if you were in college you didn't have to go. And that's why they started the draft, because they said "Hey, this isn't really fair." Just because not everybody's college material, it's not fair, let's just do it a fair way. And so, then the next day everybody had - everybody was going "What's your number? What's your number? What's your number?" And so people were duct-taping it on the back of their jean jackets. So people would stop asking what my number is! You know? And so, and then, but before that, like if you had - I had a friend who had some type of injury on his leg that kept him out. And some of the guys would try to like, take a lot of speed to get really skinny and lose weight because if you were a certain weight or lower then you didn't have to go. But once the draft came, then it was like trying to be fair.

ER: Um, so moving on to more of the Oshkosh type stuff. You said you started at 12:00UWO when yuo were 17 years old. Was that just because you were young for your grade or did you get to like, graduate high school early?

JA: No, I was young. Back when I started school the birthdate was December something, the cut off. Now it's September 1st I think? Yeah, so there were three of us in our family who all graduated - four of us, all graduated early because we were born in September.

ER: That makes sense.

JA: And now it's December, so...

ER: So you said the majority of students from your high school that were planning to major in music were planning to attend UW-Steven's Point, and that was always your plan too. Did UWO have a music program that intrigued you, or was it just the campus feel that made you want to come?

JA: It was just the feel. I had no reason why... I still don't get it, but um, it had a great music department and Roger Dennis, who was the head of the instrumental part of it, was a wonderful man. He was - he was great. Outstanding, so.

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ER: So, did you know that before or once you got here then you kind of found that out?

JA: I just knew that when I got here from meeting him.

ER: Um, did you know anything about UWO before you attended it?

JA: Well, I knew it was near a big lake, and I love living near water. I knew that - this is really funny, though, because my high school sports teams were not good and they lost at everything. So, I saw that Oshkosh like, won at everything. I thought, "Oh, that must be real good to go to a school that wins things!" But it wasn't I chose it. I just noticed that later on. So.

ER: Mmkay. Um, what were your first impressions of UWO?

JA: Well, and I talked with some friends about this who the same thing happened to, when I got here my parents drove me up here and I got into the dorm. And, you know, it's kind of embarassing to have your parents there. You just can't wait for them to leave! You know, it's like, "Okay, I'm here now, I'm starting my new life. Can you go home now?" (laughs) And then as soon as they leave you go "Oh no! I don't know -" And one of my friends did the same thing; she 14:00wouldn't even pack. Her parents had to pack her. Because she said "No, I'm not going. I'm scared now! I can't go." So it was a really weird feeling because I had never been away alone before. And then you'd have to meet your roommate, you know, you don't know how that's going to go and...

ER: Yeah, because now you can like, meet them on like Facebook where before it's like... once you got there you probably were like really new!

JA: The funny thing is my best friend came here too. She was in Donner Hall, too, we were both on second floor, too. But we were on different wings. And from day one we made different friends. And we never ever did anything together.

ER: That's kind of nice, I guess, in a way though.

JA: Yeah.

ER: Um, you said you were a hippy and were enjoying your freedom of being away from home and from your strict parents. Would you say you adjusted easily to the new lifestyle of living on your own and freedom?

JA: Oh yeah!

ER: You loved it?

JA: I loved it! I didn't even mind the dorms. I mean, I moved back in first semester my senior year, or one year when I was almost finished. Maybe it was 15:00half a semester. And that didn't bother me at all. It just - I liked being close to campus. I lived in the Union; we had a - what they called the Titan Room, I don't know if they call it that anymore. It's different than what it's like now, and it was the Titan Room, and that's where everybody hung out, and so. Everybody was in there all the time. Not even buying food, just sitting around.

ER: Um, what type of classes did you take? What were they like, and did you have any technology that was used in your classrooms?

JA: No technology. Actually, in the dorm the only electronics were were allowed in the dorm was a popcorn popper, a radio, and a record player. That's it. Phones were in the hallway. Everybody shared the same phone. For the whole wing. So, if you were popular and you were on the phone all the time nobody liked you. (laughs) There were people who would say "No, she's not here!" But yeah, um, I took the standard classes my freshman and sophomore years. You know, like English. I love psychology, um, I took a math class. They actually asked me - I 16:00had to take some tests before I came, and they actually asked me if I would consider minoring in math. Or majoring in math, because they needed more math people, and I guess I did good on the test, but I couldn't - it just didn't sound, it didn't - now, I look back and I think "I wish I would have done that!" and been a math teacher for junior high. Yeah, so, just the typical classes. I had some wonderful teachers. I had one English teacher. And that's when the campus was so crowded that we met - our English class, we were in the basement of Radford Hall. Is that still there?

ER: Yep.

JA: Radford. We were in the basement of Radford Hall for my English class for the first semester. And, but, she was really insightful. She - two things she said I'll never forget. And one was, she asked everybody to raise their hand if you think you're going to have a handsome white prince come along, and, you know, rescue you, and like all these girls raised their hand. She said, "Well, let me tell you something. He's coming on a Honda, and he needs help with the 17:00payments." (laughs) And then she said something about, because we were all involved in the protesting, she just said "You know, one thing you want to remember when you're out there protesting and fighting and stuff," she goes, "You need to remember that most friends don't last a lifetime but your parents are going to always be there, so listen to your parents." I thought that was good.

ER: Um, you attended UWO for two years, then took a break, then came back determined to graduate. Can you describe the change you saw on campus within those eight years that you saw?

JA: Well... yes, it was very different. It was like, a much... I guess, to me, healthier environment. Um, but, in a way it's healthier and in a way it's not. It's kind of like, "What is - what are the kids learning? What are they thinking? What are they - what are they protesting?" You know? Or are they just okay with everything? And, even though the bars, I think by then it was probably the age changed, so the younger ones, freshman and sophomores weren't out 18:00drinking more. But when we had the bars we also were exposed to this wonderful music, you know? So, I think, "Well, what do they do for fun?" You know? Even though I wouldn't want to see everybody out drinking again. But it was - and I had, I personally had changed a lot. And I didn't really know how to study when I was a freshman. I - I really could have used some better counseling, too. My high school counselor, they really weren't helpful, you know? And I really needed more help, direction-wise. I didn't even know what social work was. You know? If I majored in that, I don't even know what I would be, you know? So it was kind of like, "Okay, I know what a teacher is!" So, it was like, um... and the rules changed, a LOT of the rules changed. Like, when I was a freshman, girls couldn't be out after a certain time. And if you were going to go home for the weekend you had to sign in, you had to sign out, all the time. And if you were out after a certain time then you came in and there was like this couple that kind of, were in charge of the dorm?

ER: Okay.

JA: You had your RAs on each floor, but then you had someone in like, the little 19:00apartment downstairs. And ours had a new baby, and so everybody was afraid if they were out late they'd be waking up the baby and the mom, and you'd have to ring the doorbell, and then you had to go to this thing they called - we called it "Juvenile Jury," but it was some type of, like court you had to go to in the basement with girls from the dorm that were on, like a - they would judge you as to what your punishment was because you didn't come in on time!

ER: So, if you came back late could you get in then, or... ?

JA: But you'd get in trouble.

ER: You just would get in trouble.

JA: So my friend and I, we did that one night. We just - we weren't doing anything wrong, we were just late, and so we just stayed in the boys dorm. (laughs) We stayed in, yeah.

ER: So, that was like allowed, though? Like...

JA: You couldn't, but they never knew!

ER: Oh!

JA: Yeah, so we just said "Instead of getting in trouble, let's just stay -" So, we were with a guy and he's says "So, I have a friend whose got his own room, and he just wouldn't care."

ER: Uh huh.

JA: And he didn't care. But, then it's funny because that guy became a really close friend of mine for all these years. He says, "Oh yeah, I woke up in the middle of the night, and there's people that are partying in my room, and I 20:00wasn't even invited!" But it was like, lots of rules. You couldn't have boys in the room, unless - you had to leave the door open and you had one foot on the floor. If you had a boy in your room. And that was only during daytime. You know, like we had to be in at 10 or 11 at night during the week, and it was a bit more on the weekends. But -

ER: Yeah, that's crazy. So, like would your RAs constantly be walking back and forth, then, or like?

JA: Sometimes.

ER: If that's just, if they just so happened to walk past and they saw that, one of those were happening then you'd get punished.

JA: Yeah, "Okay, put the foor on the floor."

ER: (laughs)

JA: And then the weird thing is that the boys had no rules. Because they figured if the girls aren't out the boys aren't going to want to be out.

ER: Right.

JA: That's not fair.

ER: Yeah, that's crazy! I didn't know all of that.

JA: Yeah...

ER: Um, so what made you come back so determined?

JA: I just felt like I was wasting my life and I had no direction, and I really wanted... to get out of where I was living. Being a resort town, there's a lot of heavy drinking down there, too. So, I just needed to get away, and I still 21:00knew a couple people here... and, I just - I liked it up here, and I just, um, decided. Oh, I was working at a job, and I was just bored to death. I was like, I don't know... I did data entry and I did payroll and stuff for this company now in Delavan and... I had enough to keep me busy for like one hour a day, and I'd sit there for eight. There were other people in the same room typing, you know, but they worked for another division, but I tried to help them and they told me I couldn't because I worked for the other company, and I was like "But I'm bored to death!" So then I was like, I've gotta do something. I don't know what it is, but this is going to get me nowhere, and I just thought, "Well, I'll go back to Oshkosh." And then I was like... I was, I had become a Christian by then, so I was praying about it so I was like I don't have any money to stay there, but once I get there, you know, I know what it's going to cost me for the next year, and so I said, well, you know, I prayed about a job, and I needed a job. I set a deadline of like, three days, if I don't find a job within three days of me going back there, then I just have to come home.

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And I got a job. And they were just wonderful. At the foundry down the road, and they were wonderful to me. And they let me... um, there was rules then. They - I wanted to get out of the food service, and you know, they wouldn't let me. I had to pay for the moon. And they said, "Well, we'll make you a dinner and we'll give you a bag lunch to take to work every day." And I was like, ugh. I couldn't get out of it. And they were wonderful to me, and they knew I was a student, and finally my boss was wonderful. There again, I finished all my work, and I didn't have a lot of work to do. And he just said, "Well, I understand you're going to school, and I know you're - you know, you need the money and you need the job. So what I'm going to offer you is that you come into work every day." It was from like four to midnight. "You come in, and do your work, and when you're done, as long as you promise not to step a foot off campus you can go home when you're done. As long as nobody hears - ever sees you. We'll pay you as if you 23:00worked eight hours." And that was a blessing. I mean, I couldn't have done it - I couldn't have even gone four to midnight for that whole semester, I wouldn't have done it. I couldn't have made it. And so that was really wonderful of him to offer me that, and I never left campus, I just stayed on campus, stay in your dorm, stay in the Union. I said - got it. And then the girl who came after me did the same thing and she went right downtown to the bars. And that ended it forever for anybody.

ER: Yeah.

JA: Yeah. So I was like, that was really... if that hadn't all happened, it really wouldn't have worked for me.

ER: Yeah.

JA: I don't know what I would have done. So, I'm really grateful for that.

ER: Um, when you came back to UWO you were unsure that you wanted to stick with Elementary Education, but didn't want to be in college for forever so stuck with it. What major were you considering pursuing then instead of Elementary Education?

JA: Well, I kind of thought - my mind changed a little bit along the way, the last couple of years. Um, like you said, math. I would have liked to - I was aiming at, um, first through sixth grade. A degree of one through six. The 24:00breakdown was different in those days, there weren't as many middle schools around, and like - we didn't even have a middle school, we still don't. But, um, so I really would have gone for older kids. I like the upper middle school, and I liked high school. And so, I would have rather focused on one subject, like math or English, my minor is Language Arts which, so, I do get a lot of sub jobs up where they call me first because that's considered kind of "English," so I get first dibs sometimes on some of the English jobs, but - and I liked English, too, but I really would have focused on one. And you know, in grade school you have to teach all the subjects, and then, um... I also would have loved to take computers, but they didn't have it here. You know? When I was a freshman, I think they might have had a minor in Computer Science, but you didn't learn all the languages and everything. My brothers both went to Madison, and they were both, you know, lots of classes and lots of different degrees within the 25:00computer sciences. So, I really would've liked that. And then my senior year, um, because - they told me Language Arts was any classes I could take that had anything to do with communication, so I took all - all these different classes, like, and one was radio and TV. And I took that and I loved it. And if I had taken that as a freshman, I might've followed that because I love film, I would like film editing, I've always wanted to make some documentary films, and I think I would've been kind of maybe drawn in that direction because that was really - and my teacher, they hired this guy who wasn't a teacher, but he was a producer of movies out in Hollywood. And so he was here, and he was, you know, telling us stories from real life, and so it was a really great class.

ER: Um, so you said you were doing computer programming then. Did they have, like technology here for you? Or did you like, completely have to just get trained at the job for it.

JA: Oh, I had to get trained at the job.

ER: So, they didn't -

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JA: They didn't have computers.

ER: You didn't have knowledge of anything from Oshkosh or anything?

JA: Well, not from here. I had taken some summer jobs doing data entry. Where I learned how to keep -

ER: Oh, so you kind of had that experience.

JA: I knew how to key punch on the machines and knew how to - and I had been a computer operator one summer, too, where I learned a little bit, but um, here the only computers that were here were in the university offices themselves. No students had - nobody had PCs back then!

ER: Okay.

JA: We had big mainframes.

ER: So, were you allowed to use those? Or no?

JA: No.

ER: Just the -

JA: But I did have a friend that worked down there. It was in the basement of Dempsey Hall, and - so we did, we would go down there sometimes and we would make - that's when they were on cards, everything was on the punch cards. And we would make peace symbols and then spray paint them orange and hand them out. And then he had a key to the building and 40 - something like 30, 40 years later he just like, he likes to walk around campus, he's laughing, he goes "My key still fits the building!" (laughs)

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ER: That's funny!

JA: So... so it wasn't for us to use, um, but, and there weren't any classes, but that's probably what I would've taken.

ER: Yeah. Um, so you said you paid for education 100% by yourself. Was that for the entire time you attended college, and was it just because your family had like, other expenses, and the rest of your family to pay for?

JA: Well, they paid for half my freshman year. But I - just kind of decided to do that because I didn't want them telling me what to do. Because I hear so many people when they graduate well "I paid for their education, and then they didn't even use it!" And I though, I don't ever want to hear that. I'm here just to experience this. And they had my brothers. My father was very, very strict when my brothers started college. My older brother went, the first one to go to college. He - he was helping him, and he went out and bought a stereo. And my dad got really mad. He visited him, and he saw the stereo and he made him take it back.

ER: Oh really?!

JA: My brother - my brother was like 100% the best guy in the world, totally 28:00honest, totally a good kid, you know? And he just said, "I can't, I've had it a few months." And my dad said "I don't care. If I'm paying for your education and you can afford a computer - uh, a stereo - you can afford to pay for your education then." So he did take it back and the guys wouldn't give him his money back. He goes, "It's okay," my dad said. "I had to, and it doesn't matter whether you give me your money back or not," my dad said. And then, they did give him his money back which was nice, but it was sort of like, that's - I didn't want that on me because I was more of the rebellious kid. I was like, "No, I'll do it my way."

ER: Um, you said you started with a Music major, then switched to Elementary Education because the Music major was too demanding. What made you switch to Elementary Education?

JA: Well, I had been in Elementary first, the first year. And then the semester -

ER: And then you tried music?

JA: There was always - I was in the band freshman year. And then I thought, um, you know, I want - I mean, music was my love. And I - um, I switched and, first of all from my background, from a small town, I couldn't even compete with the 29:00kids that, like, came from Milwaukee and what education they had. Like, I didn't have any theory. And I only played the flute, so I didn't know anything about chords. And they all knew everything, you know, they ended up all taking that in high school, and so I was way behind everybody and, so I was just like I did it for a semester. And then you had to - I still had Education, sort of Music Education, so you have to learn every instrument, and so... and I was taking trombone. I took a trombone back for a few weeks, and then I had a baritone, and I was like... I'm not liking this. And you had to go to concerts every week and write this critique for them, and I was just like... and my teacher was so good, the flute teacher I had, he was amazing. And he just sat me down one day because I was - huh, I told him I wasn't going to be there next week because I was going to, uh, protest the war in Vietnam. And he just kind of sat me down and said "It probably would be good to pick one or the other."

ER: Yeah.

JA: "Because this requires a lot of dedication." I said, "I understand. I don't 30:00have it."

ER: That's funny. Um, what were your professors like? Were any influential in your course of study that you remember well?

JA: I remember a lot of them. And I had two favorites. One was Vincent Lopresti, he taught linguistics. And he just had this humor, and he was funny. And then I had a child psychology teacher, and, uh, he... was just really good. I mean, he didn't... he was so interesting you didn't have to take notes. You just remembered what he said because it was so interesting. And he had a little piece of paper - he came in one day, and he said "And uh, and uh." And somebody just told him, "You're always saying 'and uh'." So he had it on a piece of paper, and he goes (shuffling) while he's talking, so he wouldn't say it again! And then I just remember we had a girl in our class that, I don't know what the circumstances are, but she lost her leg. And she had a girl that helped her with getting her books and to take the same class as her and stuff, and she came in 31:00one time, and I think she started in a wheelchair, and then every time she changed and she got better, stepped up to a different thing, like a walker, and then this and then that, and then eventually a new leg. Each time I could see him like, give her a little wink, or a little thumbs up. Without saying a word. And it was just - it was very touching. And then when she finally had her leg and she came in walking all by herself, you know, he just - there was something about him that was just like, "Hey, bravo!" you know? And it was really subtle. But he died, and the the two of them both were people that I wanted to come back to. Or tell their kids how much they meant to me. And I was too late, they had both died. And he in particular had been in a car accident and his twin brother had died. And he had, um, suffered depression, but he had glass in head, and he thought he had more injuries than was evident, and so he I think he committed suicide. And I was just really sad because he was so wonderful.

32:00

ER: Um, so what kind of student were you? I know you said freshman year you kind of wished you had more study skills, but did it improve after that or?

JA: Oh, much! When I came back the second time I was totally dedicated to studying and that. I think just because I was more mature, I was - I didn't really do anything to learn how to study, but I think I was just more mature and ready to do what I needed - what I needed to do.

ER: More focused.

JA: Yep.

ER: Um, was there a certain spot on campus where you liked to spend the majority of your time? I know you keep talking about the Union a lot.

JA: The Titan Room. We had a jukebox in there, and I still hear music once in awhile that was from the days of sitting in there, and it's like "Oh..."

ER: And you just remember to that?

JA: Yup.

ER: Um, was that the only spot then, or did you have any... was there any other popular spots on campus?

JA: No, I think that was probably it. And the dorms.

ER: Yeah.

JA: Yeah.

ER: Um, so did you go home much? I know you said none of you guys really had a cars.

33:00

JA: Nobody had cars! We had to, you know, my parents had to come up, but what we would do is leave, like, my best friend wasn't - we weren't friends anymore, but there - we would take turns. And then there was another friend from my dorm that lived in Beloit, and her father would take a turn. So they would just take turns, and sometimes they would go up to the Packer game, so they'd be happy to come up. But yeah, we didn't have cars. When I graduated I had a car, but...

ER: So you didn't really -

JA: I didn't go home much. I - even stayed up here one summer, and then I was like, I get through fast. So I just stayed up here between, in Christmas too I would just go home for a few days and then come take the interim class.

ER: Okay, yeah.

JA: Yeah, I really liked it up here, so yeah.

ER: Um, what were the dorms like? Did you make many friends there? Did you live in the dorms throughout your whole college career?

JA: Well, I lived there a year and a half. And then I lived there one summer. And then I lived there... another semester. I - in and out. Really in and out. Um.

ER: Did you ever have like a house?

34:00

JA: Yup.

ER: Off campus? With some friends?

JA: Yes. My friend... my friend quit school, and my friends quit school. And she decided the last minute one year to come back, and so the dorms were full. So her father gave her a check and said "Buy a house."

ER: Oh!

JA: And she bought this monstrosity! So, I lived there with them one semester, in the house on Jackson St. And then one summer I lived with just friends, a couple guys, way over down by the lake.

ER: So, is the dorms pretty much how you made all your friends, or...? The ones that you're pretty close to.

JA: Yes. Or friends in the dorm. Yeah, friends of friends.

ER: Um, so any favorite memories that you have with your college friends? I know obviously you just came to visit one yesterday, so...

JA: Yeah... uh, favorite memories...

ER: Do you have many?

JA: Um, well one of the one, it's not a favorite memory, but one memory from the 35:00dorm is because of the Vietnam War which... we did our laundry in the basement, and the TV was in the basement, and then there was a kitchen in the basement. So, but if you... the news every night would show the faces of every soldier who got - who died that day. And sometimes it was a hundred, you know? Just to see these faces continually flashing at you every night.

ER: Yeah.

JA: Hard... memories. A lot of the stuff was just the music. You know? There were bands down at Menomonie Park, bands at South Park, bands here on campus all the time. Um...

ER: So you could just walk, it was pretty much for the community and you could just walk in to the bands down there?

JA: Yeah. Yup. Really good bands, really good music.

ER: Um, what were some of the things you remember about campus? I mean, I know you said that like, a lot of new buildings were going up while you were in school. Did that kind of like impact anything?

36:00

JA: Well, the coolest thing... well, I think the best thing was that it felt very safe here. I felt - I could be walking - I could walk around at 3 in the morning, and I would be - I didn't, but I would, I felt very safe. And then in the Titan Room, it was just like... the Titan Room kind of had, it was this long room, it kind of had sections where different people would gather in different parts. Like, the people into the fraternities and sororities always sat over here. And the hippies always sat over here. And the bookworms always - you know? And everybody kind of had their little section. And that's kind of how you met other people too. Through friends of friends, um. Yeah. It was just, uh, a different climate at that time...

ER: Um, so you said you played the flute in the band here. What was that like, and what kind of event did you like, perform at any events? Ever on campus?

JA: I don't remember performing anywhere, but I think we marched in some of the 37:00- we used to have much more parades than you do now. You guys don't even have a Homecoming parade now! I mean, it's like... we come up, I like the old alumni house, too. I don't like... I mean the new one's just a normal old building, but I love the old building, and I really liked when they had Homecoming there. And we'd stand out front and watch the parade, and... and, uh, yeah. We had a lot more parades.

ER: So pretty much just parades where you would perform?

JA: And then if - when I first came here we didn't have that football field. We had a football field in a park on Jackson St. If you go by now it's just an empty field. But it was like, so small compared to now. And then like, after I came back they built that and they would shuttle people out there and stuff like that.

ER: That's what they do.

JA: It's changed a lot.

ER: So you never performed at sporting events or anything like... ? You know how they kind of do that now.

JA: I don't remember doing that, but I was only in it for a semester - well, I was in it my freshman year too, in band.

ER: Just like practice - did you just have to practice a few times a week or whatever?

38:00

JA: Yeah. It was like a regular class, um, two or three times a week.

ER: Um, another activity you said you were active in was participating in war protest on campus, and even marched in Washington, D.C. Was that part of school, or did you choose to go there on your own?

JA: Well, I chose to go out there on my own with a bunch of people who were talking around the Titan Room saying "Let's go." You know? So somebody - we - somebody in this small group knew a band. There was a band, I knew who they were, but I didn't know them. There was a band, and they had a bus. And so they decided to let anybody on the bus that wanted to go. It was a small bus, not like a school bus.

ER: So you had to like, rent the bus or...?

JA: No, they just drove us out there. It was... that was a crazy experience. And, we had - there were three of us from Donner Hall going, and two guys that we knew. The five of us, and then a bunch of other people. The whole thing is a story in itself. But there people, other people, trying to talk us out of it 39:00like we were going to get killed or something, you know? And we were like "No, we're gonna -" It was stupid, I kept thinking, when we got out there... we didn't have a way back! And like, the guy like, disappeared.

ER: Oh no!

JA: And we got - we got hit with tear gas somewhere. And everybody disappeared. And I'm like "I better get back for Thanksgiving or my parents are going to wonder what the heck happened!" So it was just weird. And then there was this bus... a Greyhound bus just sitting there idling with all these people on it. So, I said "Chicago." So he said, "Oh, look that one's going to Chicago." And so we got on it. And there was no driver. So, we're sitting there for awhile, and we were just kind of sneaking on. So we're sitting there and sitting there, and then I said something about, to this person across from me, I said "Do you know when the bus is leaving?" She goes "No, I've been sitting on here a couple of days, the driver got teargased and he left!"

ER: Oh no!

JA: So then this other kid from Appleton got on, he wasn't like, with us but he kind of came on. He starts driving it. And I go, "Oh my gosh!" This kid... young 40:00punk kid starts driving the Greyhound bus around! And so then he finally brought it back to where he got it. And somebody said "Let's call Greyhound."

ER: Yeah!

JA: And they were like "Oh, you found our bus!" (laughs) "We'll send a driver out right away," and he came out, and there were other people with tickets and he goes, "No, they found my bus, I'm giving them a ride home to Chicago."

ER: That's crazy!

JA: He went out and bought a bunch of wine and bread for everybody on the bus. The driver! It was crazy. It was so crazy. I would never do that now. (laughs)

ER: It's so spontaneous!

JA: One thing too is that we hitchhiked a lot, which I would never do again. You know? Everybody in those days hitchhiked. And around town and everything.

ER: Um, so was the protesting big on campus here too?

JA: Oh, yes. Yeah... a lot of like, candlelit marches with candles. There was some on campus, um, it kind of fed off the Black Thursday.

ER: Okay.

JA: And people kind of, kind of went into that. And then there was one down, all 41:00the way down Main St. With all the protestors and stuff. And, um, yeah. It was huge. A lot - some of the teachers participated, and there were like... big meetings, like in Clow Hall where people would talk and, you know, try to figure out what can be done and things like that.

ER: Yeah, did any of them try to like, prevent it ever on campus? Or did they kind of just let it slide?

JA: Well, we also had a protest. After the black students protested... mainly that was just something that got out of hand. And I just learned that at the oral history project on that, that they had no intention on going in there and destroying property. They were protesting, and they had 10 - I think around 10 things on their list that they wanted to see changed. And one of them was that they got a better shot at financial aid. They felt that they were being discriminated against by the financial aid department and not being given the same chances as the white people for getting student loans and things like that. So that was one of them. They wanted some more black history projects or 42:00classes, things like that. Well, one or two of them got out of hand and started throwing typewriters out the window and stuff, and that's when it - it got, you know, the police came. Some of the people, like one of the girls in our dorm was scared to death because she was - she lived in an all-white neighborhood. She was scared that some of the blacks were going to come into her bedroom, into the windows at night and then, um, right before Thanksgiving vacation they just made us go basically, they just shut down the campus and said everyone's gone. And then from that because - and then they had the trial at the courthouse down there and everybody would go in and try to get into the trial, and I got in one day. And then from that stemmed, um, a lot of protesting by the white students of how the black students were handled.

ER: Okay.

JA: Because they weren't allowed back in to school. They were just done. And, so they - we - they - we protested in Dempsey Hall. And - I should've brought that pictured. We protested in Dempsey Hall, and then the police just came and walked everybody out. Everybody was peaceful and there was no... there was no problem with it, the police just came and walked everybody out, and...

43:00

ER: Crazy. I know, it sounds like there's always a bunch of riots and stuff going on.

JA: Yeah...

ER: Um, so why did you choose to participate in the band and the other organizations? Did you ever consider to get involved in more student activities or organizations on campus?

JA: Let's see... well... well, I'm a conservative now, and when I first came I was conservative, and then I kind of joined the Dems. There was a group called the Young Democrats. I joined them for awhile, the Young Dems, and uh, there really wasn't any other activities... it was kind of like the culture. It was like, if you were with this group of people you, you know.

ER: Okay.

JA: Yeah.

ER: Um, what did you do for fun on campus? Like, I know you said Homecoming was a big thing, like you had parades and stuff. Um, was there any dances or other... ?

JA: Dances all the time. First day. Upstairs in the Union. There was dances, you know?

ER: Just for like, the first day of school?

JA: Yup, at night, at night though. Over the first weekend. There was, um, music 44:00in the Union all the time, and I loved to dance. And so we would go out dancing at the bars with the bands that were playing. There was a band, um, you know the long, tall hotel downtown? It's called the Rauff, I think. R - A - U - F - F. Old, old building. It used to be, um, like a hotel. And that had a band in the basement. And that was... it had names at different times, names over the periods. One time it was "Wage Peace." And they had bands, and there was a guy called Twisting Harvey, and out of Milwaukee, and when he came everybody went to see him because he would pull girls on stage and dance with him, and I was like oh! I get to dance with Harvey! Yeah.

ER: That's funny.

JA: So, I - I love to dance, so...

ER: So music and dancing.

JA: We also had, um, I don't know - I'm assuming it was private property, but somewhere out on the west side of town there's something called the pits, which were sand pits where we would all go out and swim in the dunes, like sand... it was just, private. I don't think they can go anymore, but...

ER: Yeah, I haven't heard of it.

45:00

JA: We would hang out over there, too.

ER: Oh, fun!

JA: Yeah...

ER: Um, did you go off campus much? What did you think about the community of Oshkosh?

JA: Um, I did go off campus a lot. I love to wander, I love to see the neighborhoods, and, you know. I... and one of my friends that was on campus was also from Menasha, so I would go up to Menasha, Appleton. I like the whole Fox Valley because it just felt like there was so much to offer you, and there's so much, um, big city kind of stuff. But it just felt like you were in a small town. It was just, you know, neat. So we went to see bands out in Menasha and Appleton, and then... you know, we spent a lot of time, I love Menominie Park. I love to go down there.

ER: Yeah, it is super nice.

JA: Yeah, so...

ER: Um, did you ever go to any of the bars? If so, what was the bar environment like?

JA: Yes. (laughs)

ER: For the music, of course.

JA: Tosh's was not my cup of tea because it was more just a big... the beer was so cheap that it was just packed full of people and it was slimey on the floor 46:00and just, just a - I liked to go where there was music. So, we had -

ER: Did pretty much like every bar have music going on?

JA: A lot of them did. Um, the CI, which stood for the College Inn, that was huge, that was big. And there were three or four of them. Mabel Murphy's and the one over here... Scarlet - Scarlet O'Hara's, or something like that? Behind the... there's a bar over... I'm not sure what direction I'm in... they were built afterwards. They weren't, they weren't there when I started. And then there was - like Tosh's was the main drag there. And then next to it was called Andy's Library, but the beer was all you could get when you were 17. Andy's Library was for people 21 and over. And that had more hard liquor. And sometimes, you know some of the girls my age, my friends, would sneak in there. Like "Yeah, I was at Andy's Library." And we walked everywhere, I mean, I can 47:00remember just walking home in the freezing cold from the bars. And...

ER: Um, were they pretty much just college kids, or was it, like, grown adults, too? Or would you say college kids kind of took over.

JA: Some town kids, some town kids.

ER: Yeah?

JA: Yeah. You kind of knew the difference. Yeah...

ER: Um, would you say there were more men or women on campus?

JA: I don't know. Probably the same.

ER: Yeah. Um, what was it like to be a man or woman at UWO then? Did certain like, men have roles compared to women? Or was it pretty like, all equal?

JA: I think it was becoming all equal. It was kind of the times.

ER: Because you said at your high school it was more like, men's sports. So was it that here too?

JA: Um... no, I don't think so. There were more women's things...

ER: Don't think it ever like, impacted activities?

JA: And then as I - as I - as I - as, um, as a few years went by there was a big 48:00presence of women's help, you know, um, help available for women for counseling and things like that. Women's issues were becoming more important.

ER: Um, you said you attended UWO when the black students protested in the financial aid office, can you expand on that more, and like how did it impact the campus? You said you all had to leave early for Thanksgiving break.

JA: Yeah, I think - because I - because of that period of time when I was 17 and I - they were - the ones that lived - the girls that lived in Donner Hall would have guys come over and they would, you know, socialize down in the lounges in the basement and stuff and cook and stuff, and I had gone down there to do laundry or watch TV or just to walk through and cook something, make some popcorn or something. And they invited me to join them one night. Then I got to 49:00know them, and so, so they were my friends at the beginning. And so when they all - when that happened that day, I just like "What is going on!" You know? And then they were all gone. And, I mean, I had a lot of other friends, but I had - I know their faces, I know the names of all the faces in there, and it's like... it was very weird for me.

ER: Did you like, know they were upset, or like, planning on doing any of that?

JA: No, not at all.

ER: Just.. okay.

JA: Yeah, I don't know how that all got organized. But... so that was... and then when it happened, as it - as the day went on, the front law of Dempsey Hall just got packed with kids. You know, people with those megaphones trying to tell everybody what's going on, because nobody knew what was going on in there. You know, before they took them all out. And um, people were just trying to take sides and figure out what's going on, and... I think that, um, part of the reason they did the oral history project for the Black Thursday was that the 50:00professors, well, I don't know if they're connected to you or your oral histories class, but the two professors that started that oral history said that, you know, when I went to school here there was only a few - more than a hundred - black students. And there was 13,000 others. And so... but he said 40 years later there's still that same number. And so they were trying to figure out if - is there a stigma here for the black community? That they won't come here anymore. And they were trying to see, if there is, what can we do to change that?

ER: Right.

JA: And so... I don't know, people were mixed... people had mixed feelings, and even one of my friends who I would - who I thought was in there protesting with us at the time, and I said something to her about the Black Thursday project and she said she hadn't participated in that at all. And she said, "I was just blind to everything that was going. It never even occurred to me that anybody had any issues about anything." And all these years later when I was trying to explain to her what it was really about, she goes "Oh." She just - she had no idea what it was even about.

51:00

ER: Huh. Would you say there were any other major campus issues going on, like politically, culturally, or educationally?

JA: Well... I think because I left in the middle of it, kind of, I - it - things just calmed down before I came back. And I know the year before I came here there were beer riots because there was something about the delivery of the beer wasn't getting through.

ER: Okay.

JA: So the students were protesting that the beer -

ER: That's funny.

JA: That the beer wasn't here. They - oh, there was a protest at one time because, um, a lot of students wanted Algoma shut down. They wanted to make it like, Madison did with State St. where it's a mall, you walk on the street, and they wanted to divert the traffic around, but they never were able to... to get that accomplished.

ER: Um, so what would you say the racial make-up of UWO was like when you attended? I know you said there was only -

JA: A little over 100 blacks.

ER: A litttle over 100 blacks.

JA: And then we had several, um, Asian people from other countries, and then some American Asians too. But not very much, very minimal.

52:00

ER: Pretty white dominated.

JA: Yeah...

ER: Um, so, after college how did you feel when you finished college? Like, what did you want to do? Did you have a goal in mind of what you wanted to do or anything set up?

JA: Yeah... well, I thought it would be easier to get a job. When I graduated the market was just flooded with teachers and I couldn't get a job. And that was disappointing because, I mean I was happy I was done, but I was sad that I had to move out of Oshkosh because I kind of, I was torn. You know, I just knew I had to move on, but...

ER: Did you ever think of like, staying up in Oshkosh or did you kind of just go back to -

JA: Not at the time, I think I wanted to get out at the time.

ER: Yeah, back to home.

JA: After I left, even now, I still think sometimes, "Oh, maybe I should've stayed up there," because I really did like it. But most of my friends aren't here, and when I come up here I kind of get sad because I'm like, well I really like it but I don't have any friends. But I - I thought it would be easier to get a job, and I was disappointed when I had to struggle and I never did manage 53:00to get a job. And I really - see, I really hoped that my grade school would hire me. And, because, and - in those days I was a really good kid, my family was a very well-known and a good family, and I thought, well I probably have a good shot at my own school, and I liked it there... and they had told my mother, the school board wasn't, you know, involved in hiring, and at the time they hired from their subs which is nice. They, you know, it's a great policy. So I was subbing there, and one of my friends subbed there longer so she was really next in line, and they just kind of went right to plate. You could kind of tell! And she accepted one somewhere else. And I was like, "Oh good!" And then I was like, I think there was one person ahead of me and then they... enough kids moved away that they didn't need an extra teacher, and then so later they hired him and then they fired him because he hit a kid with a baseball, with a plastic baseball bat.

ER: Oh, man.

JA: And I'm like, "Oh, what about me!" So then I just gave up. And then I went 54:00into, I got a, I was fortunate enough to get into Andy's Candies and they trained me as a computer programmer and I loved it.

ER: You did, yeah?

JA: Yeah. And now when I was sub I think, I don't think I could've done it.

ER: Right.

JA: I don't think I could've done it. And I - maybe if I had focused on one subject, or older kids, but I couldn't of - I don't think I could've done it.

ER: Um, so you majored in Elementary Education but you said you did computer programming instead. Why didn't you want to pursure Elementary Education but, that was pretty much why, because you couldn't just, really find a job for awhile.

JA: Right. And you know, I know when I subbed, or not subbed, when I did my student teaching here too, and the teacher realized it more than I realized it, but that I couldn't handle the volume of the kids. Like, and he noticed that I was always telling them not to talk, you know, in the hallways and stuff, I was always afraid they were bothering people. Because they'd come in and be so loud, and he goes, "Are you having a hard time with how loud they are?" and I said "Yeah..." and I guess it was just normal. Because even now, too, I'm like "Okay, let's... no talking in the hallway, please!" You know, and it's, and I don't 55:00take Phy. Ed for a sub job because I can't handle all those - I did it one day, of 60 kids and balls - basketballs all flying around. And I had two other teachers, but, in the room but, I couldn't take that volume. And in the lunch room, I can't take that volume of all those kids. And so, I don't think I would've made it, but... When I subbed, I thought, "Maybe I'll just try it, you know?" And then I subbed for a half a day, and I thought "No." (laughs)

ER: So it was a good thing it fell apart!

JA: Yeah, yeah.

ER: Um, how did college prepare you for life after college? Would you say it prepared you well for your career? I know you kind of had a career like, switch, but would you say it still kind of prepared you?

JA: Yeah, I think it prepares you for life itself. I'm surprised that, you know, like I made friends with different kinds of people than you think you would make friends with, and you know, you just... you gravitate toward different people, and I was like "Oh, I would've never thought I would be friends with that 56:00person." Just different kinds of people, and different backgrounds, and... yeah, I mean the studying was like, preparing you for... I mean, you've got to be responsible and, you know, yeah, I learned a lot.

ER: Um, what was the job market like? What opportunities did you have available to you? I know you said the teaching job market was kind of hard -

JA: It was really hard.

ER: But was the computer programming just as hard, or was it a little more...?

JA: Um, I don't think it would have been, except but where I live there's not a lot of big names. You know, if I had gone to a city or more industrial area there would've been more opportunities. But I - there, again, didn't have any education in that field. I fell into it at Andy's Candies; they hired me and they taught me. And so it was like, they had a new boss and he just said "Do you want to learn to program?" and I said "Yeah." Because they hired me for like, night shift computer operator.

ER: Okay.

JA: And I probably would've been stuck with that long. And he trained me, and he trained me well. And I loved it. And so... but still, even now, if I wanted to 57:00go back into it, which I wouldn't, but... where I live isn't the best place. It's - you know, it's hotels, motels and restaurants. (laughs)

ER: Um, have you have much involvement with UWO since you've graduated? I know you said you come up here a lot.

JA: Oh yes. I like it up here. I come for Homecoming, um, I have two friends - well, we've had different groups over the years, it kind of evoles into different people. Started out with the two sisters that lived on Jackson St., and we'd have it down at the Pioneer when the Pioneer was there they'd always have the after-game party there. And, and, we'd come to that. And we came to that when we were still here. They were going all along, so it was free beer. (laughs) And I didn't know it! And I guess alumni are, I mean, students are welcome to come but they don't really know about it. So they knew about it, so I'm like "Oh, okay" so then we kept coming, and then after awhile another friend came, and they dropped out, some other friends came, and they - I'm the only thing that's stayed the same, and so, sometimes... a couple times ago, nobody 58:00came, and you know, I just hang out and...

ER: Um, what are your thoughts on UWO now? Like, the changes and... what's evolved?

JA: Well, a lot of changes are good. Um, I did see, I grabbed an Advance - I always grab an Advance Titan when I'm here.

ER: Okay.

JA: And I saw that they were going to maybe cut some classes. And that's always... that's always sad and scary. You know, um, the tuition I think, you know, that's like a sticker shock to me what they - what you pay now. It's like... why does it have to be that way? I wish it wasn't. And then I think of my niece coming here, and I'm like "Oh no..." I get to worry and fear for her, you know, because it's like, I don't know, you know?

ER: Yeah. I mean, it - yeah, I think that's with a lot of colleges...

JA: I love, like, um, the Union, and the theatre, and if I had lived closer, I'd been up here all the time. Because I'm a little over two hours away. But if I was an hour away, I'd be here ten times more than I was.

ER: Yeah. Um, what advice would you give current students?

JA: Hmm...

59:00

ER: If any.

JA: Be good. (laughs) Um, I guess, try to do things in a balanced way. If you're really a bookworm and you just, don't have any social life, you know, try to get a balance between academics and the social and that, but be careful, and... you got lots of time to grow up, so don't do it over night.

ER: Um, is there anything else you'd like to share then?

JA: Mmm... I have some photos to show you. Would you like to see some photos? Um, I don't... I still wonder sometimes like, I think we have purpose in life, and I still wonder sometimes, you know, I feel like... I didn't use my degree, I got a job because of it, but it's sort of like... I'm so glad I came here, and yet I still wonder, like... am I supposed to be doing something different? You 60:00know? Like, what was it all about? And... um, but I - I was going to show you, some things I learn about people I went to school with by accident, and there was one man in here... I don't know if the pictures are in here... um, when we were protesting the war, he was one of the ones that was very, very, um, much a leader, and I just assumed - I assumed that he was a teacher, a professor. And, and - he's in here, in some crowd, like in front of Radford going down the street. And, um, if I can find it... Oh, one of the, ROTC? Do you know what that is?

ER: (Negative affirmation noise)

JA: I don't know if you have that anymore. It's "Reserved Officers Training Corps," it's the military on campus, and they have that at a lot of schools. And 61:00if you, um, join the ROTC it's sort of like joining the Reserves in the military, but you go, you do things with them on campus and you can really get a lot of help with your tuition, but at the time they felt that, um, students felt that they did not want a military presence on campus, that they should not be on college campuses, and so this was on the sidewalk in front of the parking lot by Taylor Hall, for many many years, I don't think it's there anymore now, but it was always there, some kids put that in the cement. And uh, but anyway this Dick Allen fellow, I thought he was a teacher and he wasn't... but anyway, he, years later I heard his name, and I thought "Oh, my goodness!" And he was actually, when he left here, he was very political and very intelligent. And when he left here he became, um, an owner of Brown's Chicken, Brown's Fried Chicken in Illinois somewhere, and he was one of the - he and his wife were murdered.

62:00

ER: Oh!

JA: In this Brown's Chicken, uh, there were like six or seven people murdered several years ago. And it was just like, I saw it on the news, and I'm like, I know that name!

ER: Yeah.

JA: That Dick Allen fellow... so... but he was... it doesn't really have a picture of him, in this picture here. And then I was gonna show you... let's see... my photos, I just downloaded a couple. Um, this is the phone in the hallway that we had to share. And everybody had to take their turns using the phone. And this is, uh, oh I was in the Ski Heilers!

ER: Okay!

JA: 'Cause I ilked to ski, but I never... we just had... we went to their parties. (laughs) I couldn't afford to go off on the trip, but okay, so, we, they had skiing, um, skiing lessons for people who didn't know how to ski outside in the grass. So, some of these are - this is my roommate. And this is, these are girls from my dorm on the side of the Union. You know, it looks a lot different from the outside now. When the black students rioted some of the girls started, decided to make a black santa on the bulletin board in the dorm that 63:00year. And then that's me in the Titan Room.

ER: Nice.

JA: And his name is Tom Tomasco, and Peter something, so it's... our section.

ER: Yeah.

JA: And the jukebox is over here. And that's the pits. That's the pits.

ER: Oh, the sand pits that you went to!

JA: Yeah, where we went swimming and hung out, and nobody complained so I don't know. And this is my nieces, the little poster that she - our little post-it note. No card she put on it, but school didn't - could put where they're going, and so she did that which was kind of cute. And then I did have - now these four girls. If I hadn't - there was one thing I think of once in awhile. If I hadn't gone to Oshkosh, these girls wouldn't be alive. Because their mother was a friend of mine, she came up to visit me a lot. And she met their dad here.

ER: Oh!

JA: So they got married, they had four girls.

ER: Nice.

JA: And then... that's one of them. She's a singer. Her song was on the Real World. And she's pretty - she's really good, and she's also a computer person 64:00now. This is one of the other girls all grown up, and that's four or her six kids.

ER: Oh my gosh!

JA: And then... this is one of the baby girl, and then her five kids. So there's like 15 kids that are in the world because their mom came up to visit me and me their dad.

ER: Nice!

JA: Through me, so I'm like, well I did help that, I guess, so... So that was kind of fun. But anyway.

ER: Thanks for showing me.

JA: Yeah, yeah. So.

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