Interview with Timber Smith

Kenneth Webber: Alright, today I'm here with Timber Smith a graduate of UW-Oshkosh. How are you doing today Timber?

Timber Smith: I'm doing well.

KW: Good, what years did you attend UW-Oshkosh?

TS: Uhhhh, that's a tough question because I attended a bunch of different times uh so like I started originally in 92 coming straight out of high school but then umm I went here for maybe about a year, year and half and then I went to the military and then once I came back from the military then I you know I had a family and stuff and a kept coming back doing a couple classes here and there. I actually didn't get my bachelor's degree until 2011.

KW: Umm, okay and where are you originally from?

TS: I'm originally from Milwaukee.

KW: Okay. What was it like growing up as a kid in Milwaukee back when you were a kid?

TS: Ummm, It was I don't know. It was cool. What I remember, if you're talking like, when I was really young like uhh I had some really good friends that were 00:01:00on the block. We had an alley we all played you know kick the can, hide and go seek and just like good traditional what you'll expect kids to do ride bikes and kick it and that kind of stuff. When I got to be a teenager it was a little more complex my parents had put me in a school out in the suburbs so trying to go hang out in the burbs was a little more complex.

KW: So I know like now people when they think of Milwaukee they think of negativity was it still that way when you were growing up?

TS: Uhh, naw actually it wasn't like that at all I mean I'm not saying things weren't happening but there was still what I like to say there was still like stuff to do there was a city, there was movie theaters, malls, there were you actually had things you could do. Now when I go to Milwaukee I just feel like it's almost like a gutted city and everything that is fun to do or could be down 00:02:00for family or overall other than eating or getting your haircut is all out in the burbs.

KW: Ok, then I see you just said you went to a suburban school for high school, did you come from a MPS school?

TS: My parents never put me in any MPS school, uhh I went to catholic school from kindergarten through sixth grade and then from Middle school they put me in whitefish bay

KW: Okay so then you stayed in the Whitefish Bay system?

TS: Yes until undergraduate.

KW: Umm were you a first generation college student?

TS: Uhh yes from my immediate family. Yes.

KW: And since you're, since your immediate family, you're a first generation college student, did your parents play a huge role in you going to college? Or--

TS: Uhhh not really umm my parents were old school what I call old school traditional parents who were more like when you're 18 you have to get out of the house. I don't care what you do but do something positive umm so they were 00:03:00definitely not against me going to get a job uhh right out of high school ya know but again there was a lot more factory jobs and things that paid really well if that was the route you wanted to go. I don't know if the same opportunities is still out there like that. So-- But they didn't hinder me from college either. So it was just kind alike you do you do you but whatever you do do something positive.

KW: Ok, did you have any siblings?

TS: Yes I have a younger sister.

KW: Okay, then did she attend college?

TS: Yes she actually graduated before I did.

KW: Ok, and what school did she attend?

TS: Uhh she actually went to MPS schools. Umm from my experience from being out in the suburbs my parents decided they didn't want to go that route again so my sister actually went to ugh, Madison. James Madison High School.

KW: Okay, and then did the community you come from influence you throughout your 00:04:00high school life? Especially you coming-- being from the city. Going to the suburbs school. Did it like influence you like do better or try to be better? Because you're coming from like more of a city?

TS: I would actually say it probably influenced me in the opposite way. It made me feel like I had to prove myself more because people would test you because you went to the suburb school even though you live up the block from them and you grew up with them and they know what you're about. So I would actually say that I probably-- it wasn't a positive influence. I actually didn't realize the power of the suburb education until later in life and I realized I was really well educated.

KW: Then ugh, as a high school senior did you have any other college options other than UW Oshkosh?

TS: Uhh yeah I actually had-- I got admitted in quite a few places.

KW: Okay. And then ugh, how did you hear about UW-Oshkosh?

TS: I went here for pre-college so I did pre college program for both my sophomore and junior year of high school.

KW: Okay. And then umm, what really sold you on UW-Oshkosh instead of the other schools?

TS: The ability to get there. The familiarity was really the thing. So my philosophy or at least my-- the way I looked at it was because I went there for pre-college I wouldn't be walking in like a freshman new to campus. I actually knew my way around campus. I knew faculty on campus. I knew programs on campus so like I felt like I was walking in with knowledge more like a sophomore rather than a freshman who was new to it all.

KW: And then ugh just-- I'm just gonna go back to your parents. So you said you had like an old school like traditional family. What are the occupations of your parents?

TS: My dad was a truck driver and my mom was-- she actually worked at the Federal Reserve-- for the Federal Reserve Bank.

KW: Okay. So then I know probably back then there was like-- especially a truck 00:06:00driver like probably good jobs?

TS: I would say that umm-- I probably lived a really good life but I didn't know because my parents philosophy was to always tell me we were broke.

KW: Okay.

TS: We never had money if you asked them.

KW: So umm I know you said you did a pre-college program before coming to UW-Oshkosh did you meet friends through that college program that attended UW Oshkosh as well?

TS: Uhh yeah I met people that ended up uhh that I ended up knowing when I got here. Umm because you know you have the people that work inside the program who are actually counselors for the pre-college program but they were students here at the time. So when I got here I knew them. So that was pretty nice.

KW: Okay, Umm so how was your transition coming from Milwaukee to Oshkosh?

TS: I think I probably had it pretty easy because I had already lived it in a 00:07:00way. Because I have never gone to a school where there was majority black people. My Catholic school I was one of the only black kid in class, if not the only one, and definitely in Whitefish Bay it was the same thing so coming here it was uhh business as usual as far as I was concerned. It really-- There was no true transition for me. I was already acclimated I guess to a certain extent.

KW: So when you came in your first year did you stay in dorms?

TS: Yes

KW: How was dorm life back in Oshkosh or around that time?

TS: I had a good time.

KW: Okay. A good time?

Timber: Yeah we had a great floor of guys and like we were really tight and ummm and we actually quite a few black gentleman on the same floor so like we kicked it. We kicked it with each other, ate with each other, balled with each other. 00:08:00Like, it was a good time.

KW: Okay so what were your first impressions of UW-Oshkosh when you got on campus? Like your first week of school like how did you look at school, the community, and the campus?

TS: Ummm, you know it's tough to say because it's been a minute but what I can tell you is like it was more about campus life. Like living in the dorms, if I liked my roommates that kind of stuff as much-- Much different than class. Like, I never felt like I was never sweating class that hard. You know like I was passing thing. I got things done. Not saying I never failed a class just saying it didn't faze me because I wasn't failing out. So my big focus was just about, you know, living.

KW: Yeah. I can see that. So umm you said after your first year you went to the military?

TS: Yes.

KW: What like-- what made you go to military after your first year?

TS: Uhh, in all honesty it was a situation where my parents didn't want to do my 00:09:00financial aid and the only way that you can no do-- not put your parents on financial aid is you wither have to be married, have a baby, be a veteran or uhh well those were the ones. So I didn't want to ever be put in situation where I had to depend on them to do my financial aid again so I just decided I would join. Not to mention the financial aid aspect was cool.

KW: Okay. Alright so umm, what was your major as an undergrad?

TS: Umm, when I first came to college my initial major was library science and then I moved to social work and I ended up graduating with a sociology degree.

KW: Why did you chose your final major in sociology?

TS: Basically it was a situation that I really enjoyed it and I had taken so many sociology courses and because of the time that I had I was away from school 00:10:00I had kinda lost some of the courses that for social work that I would have needed they wouldn't have counted anymore so I would have had to retake them. So the fastest route to my degree was through sociology so that's what I went with.

KW: Okay. And then I know umm, I know before you went to Oshkosh there was an event called black Thursday. Did you know about Black Thursday coming into Oshkosh? Or--

TS: Not coming into to Oshkosh but once I got here yes.

KW: Okay, and then did you see any-- well how can I put this? Did you see any like changes being made since-- from Black Thursday around the campus?

TS: No. I think all of that would've already been in place. Ya know, Oshkosh was very interesting though when I came.

KW: Interesting as far as?

TS: Umm, It was just like now there are quite of few students of color back then 00:11:00it wasn't. Back then when I first came if you went to Appleton mall and you were black they thought you were a packer and even then I was a little guy they thought I was at least on the practice squad. You would at least literally have people walking and be like uhh, you know, where do you play? It was like, what?

KW: So would you say there any racism around Oshkosh, the community or school when you went here that you had to face?

TS: Uhh of course but nothing that made me feel endangered. More just what I would call unconscious basis and ignorance.

KW: Yeah. Umm, so basically when you came across a situation did you handle it in a certain way? Or did you just--

TS: Umm to be honest I probably can't even remember how I handled them but I will say that I was a lot more, fiery and a hot head when I was young so they were probably not handled in best manner.

KW: Okay. So umm, coming in as a freshman, I know now in Oshkosh the environment 00:12:00is like, you know, a lot of people like to go out to bars and stuff. Is that still like a good, like an environment of Oshkosh back when you went?

TS: Ummm we had a good time?

KW: Okay. So as far as like parties and going to the bars?

TS: We had a good time. We had a good time. Yeah. No doubt. I had a good time.

Phone rings

KW: Alright so umm you said like you guys had pretty much fun on the weekends and during the week as an undergrad at UW-Oshkosh. Umm, also I know as an undergrad you pledged Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. What made you wanna join that organization as an undergrad?

TS: Ummm well I knew I wanted to pledge one of the divine nine organizations umm, which are the historically black fraternities and sororities. And I actually, initially, wanted to pledge Kappa but umm I ended up doing Alpha 00:13:00because my roommate was an Alpha and I became really close with the Alphas on our campus and I liked how they carried themselves and what they stood for. And it probably turned out to be one of the best decisions I made with college.

KW: Okay. Umm, back when you were an undergrad how was the divine nine? Was there any other divine nine greeks on UW Oshkosh?

TS: Yes. There was Sigmas on campus. There was AKA's on campus. There was a Delta or two on campus. Umm there was-- there was black greek life here and it was actually prevalent.

KW: Yeah. Uhh, what is one of the biggest things you learned becoming a man of Alpha Phi Alpha?

TS: Umm, you just, I think one of the things you kinda learn is that umm you should carry yourself a certain way if you want people to treat you a certain way. I think a lot of people complain about how they're treated but they're not necessarily carrying themselves in the way that would make others treat them 00:14:00that awy. So Alpha kinda-- It's about being a distinguished gentlemen and umm, and I learned that when you carry yourself as such people are a lot more likely to treat you as such.

KW: Okay. And then what impact did your fraternity have on the campus of UW-Oshkosh? Did you guys do like a lot of events to like bond people together or what was your presence like on the campus?

TS: We did a lot of events. We partnered with a lot of the organizations on campus. We were very active organization. We had been around actually since the early 70's or late 60's even and umm so we had legacy, a really good reputation on campus. People back then you actually used to actually pledge so people actually are used to seeing our umm-- see the people who were on line "pledging" across campus.

KW: So was that for like all greeks back then?

TS: No.

KW: Okay. Okay. Umm, were you involved in anything else at UW Oshkosh as an undergrad?

TS: I was part of the BSU.

KW: Okay. And was the BSU strong back when you were--?

TS: I think I would say they were very strong. And not to compare it to what BSU is now but back then there was a lot more organizations who made leaders of color on campus and those leaders of color usually were the ones that came and ran BSU but they had prior experience from running their organization. So one of the great things about when you have black greek organizations on campus is that's a way-- it's a leadership pipeline.

KW: Okay so basically everyone who was greek basically ran the BSU too?

TS: Yeah or or eventually it was a progression. You pledged, you took a role inside your organization, you worked up to there and then you usually ran for an office within the BSU. And so therefore you were familiar with individuals on campus. You were individual with how organizations function on campus. You had 00:16:00relationships already built. It just was a smooth transition.

KW: Okay. And umm also since you went-- since you came-- since your first year you went back to the military. So when did you become a member of Alpha Phi Alpha? After your first year or after you came back?

TS: Before I left.

KW: Okay, so before you left your freshman year?

TS: Yes I actually did one of the craziest things you can probably do and I pledged and then I went to basic training.

KW: Yeah I bet you that was pretty tough.

TS: Yeah that was no joke

KW: Was basic training was the same thing as--

TS: Yes. Actually pledging was harder.

KW: Yeah. I can see that. Umm so BSU umm-- So were there any black athletes like popular black athletes on the campus at the time? Did you guys support athletic events?

TS: Umm I know they existed, but it wasn't the people that I necessarily hung out with. I always feel like athletes are their own family and they kinda stick 00:17:00with each other and take care of each other. So I knew there were people who were athletes but they weren't people like that were commonly hanging out with us.

KW: Okay. Cause I know that like now you have got like Cam on the football team. Like everybody like try to support Cam especially like his last season. I was wondering if there was any like--

TS: Yeah. Oh, well we had a lot of cats who-- I can't think of really any football football players. There were some Alphas who were football players umm but it just didn't seem like it was as big. Umm with Cam, Cam's been known as a great athlete this whole time he's a wonderful gentleman. And I just think he's earned the respect of a lot of individuals doing it the way he's done it.

KW: Umm, I know at UW-Oshkosh now students come to you, especially students of color come to you for like help, advice, they can rant. When you were an undergraduate student was there that one faculty member that you could come to?

TS: Umm, there were people. And it was a good staff here. Umm, and it was a 00:18:00strong staff that took care of like multicultural affairs. Umm, some of them are still here cause Ermera was here when I went to school here. So umm those people are still around, you know, until this day. But there was one lady in particular named Dr. Hawkins. Dr. Hawkins did not play but she made sure she grew people and she took care of people.

KW: So was the MEC building still there when you were--?

TS: Yes we kicked it in the MEC!!!

KW: Kicked it in the MEC?

YS: Used to have meetings in the MEC.

KW: Umm, as an undergraduate student was there any struggles you had to overcome as a student? Like that you really had struggles with?

TS: I don't think my struggles as an undergrad student were any different than any other undergrad student. And what I mean by that is just the ability to focus, to perform, to stay on task, to get stuff done on time. Umm, to just get 00:19:00the-- to do the do-diligence of what's necessary to get a degree.

KW: Mhm. And then what was one of your greatest undergrad experiences that you always remember?

TS: Uhh I don't know that's tough to say. I mean I just loved being on campus and I made a lot of good friend back in the day and I'm still friends with a number of them. Or at least I keep up with them a little bit. You know facebook makes things a lot easier. So I don't know if there's anything. I mean my great accomplishment, my greatest accomplishment on campus was when I walked across that stage for the first time and held that diploma that took a long time to get to.

KW: Umm, how did UW-Oshkosh change the campus environment? Like, are there new buildings since you were an undergrad or?

TS: Tons of new buildings, umm you know with the-- they ripped down 3 dorms to 00:20:00build umm horizon, and you know sage definitely was not here. We didn't have any academic buildings that were that new. Matter of fact, we didn't have anything that new when I went here. You know, things have been around for a minute. So to see all the new stuff that's built and all the re-modeling that's happened, that's pretty amazing. Umm, but what was really different is like it feels a lot bigger than it used to be. Particularly with students of color. There's a lot more. A lot lot lot lot more. Like back in my day, you knew them all. We all knew each other and we all hung out with each other whether we liked each other or not because it just wasn't enough of us to not be cool with each other.

KW: Yeah.

TS: So it was just, everything was, you know, we were cool.

KW: Yeah because I know now, I sometimes see a new person of color I haven't even seen since I've been here for my year and a half so.

TS: Right. And there's a ton. And then you've got your whole people who live off 00:21:00campus versus the people who live on campus. I mean back in my day, we were so tight niched that actually a lot of the black people that just lived in town kicked it with us and came to all the house parties and everything. So that was, you know we were just cool. Like everybody was cool. Like we even uhh, some of my friends in town still. That's what I know them from.

KW: Yeah. So uhh, so basically like the black community was a lot tight and then did like a lot of you guys live on campus together or off campus?

TS: Well we all lived around campus.

KW: Okay. And then uhh, looking back at your undergraduate experience, what advice would you give a student that may have come from the same-- Like students who come from Milwaukee or students of color?

TS: Umm, the best advice I could ever give you is to a) keep an open mind. Umm, give people an opportunity to learn who you are. Don't be close minded, don't 00:22:00mistake ignorance for malice. When somebody intentionally is being wrong to you or mean or saying hurtful things or if they're just curious because they just don't know. Some of your best friends may be those people that just don't know or some of the people that may give you some of your great opportunities may be those people also. Definitely try to find a support system here and that can be anybody or anything. That can be a professor, could be a counselor, it could be your admissions counselor. It could be dean of students. There are such good people that work here and truly love this institution and love students. This is a very student centered and focused campus so find your support system and use it. Use it use it use it until you walk across that stage.

KW: Speaking of the Dean of students, I just thought of a question. Who was the 00:23:00Dean of students when you were an undergrad? Were they active with the student community?

TS: I don't know because back I think the dean of students was more for disciplinary actions and you didn't want those problems.

KW: And as far as dorm life did you guys have restrictions on the dorms?

TS: Uhh yeah I don't think the rules are much different now than then. Umm, you know. I don't know, I didn't really pay attention to it too much. We had a very nice setup where we had a number of gentlemen. Particularly a bunch of gentlemen of color and we all lived on the same floor in the corner of Fletcher. So like we were good like there was gonna be no complaints coming out of there because we all took care of each other so.

KW: Yeah because I know my professor actually for his class he was telling us like back in the day there would be like, especially for females students on their side, there would be like house dorm moms, and they would make sure 00:24:00everybody was back in the room at a certain time.

TS: Yes, the lady I work with now Beverly Benson she actually lived through that time. Yeah there was curfews and you had to keep your door and least as a like a foot open if there was a male in room.

KW: Oh really?

TS: Yeah so males couldn't be there after a certain time. There was a whole lot of rules back then but that was way before me. That was actually in the late 60's.

KW: Oh the 60's?

TS: Yeah. Late 60's early 70's.

KW: Umm, do you feel like your education from UW-Oshkosh helped you in your career today?

TS: Umm yes education is a funny thing it's not necessarily what you're getting straight out of the book or anything like that but the ability to write well is essential. Learning about the the different technologies is essential. Learning how to communicate with others and have conversations. High level conversation is meaningful during group work. As much as you hate group work you will do group work as a professional and you have to learn to work with different 00:25:00personalities that you necessarily don't match with. So the overall experience of going to college what I got out of it, the value of it was not necessarily what I read in a book, that kind of knowledge. But definitely how to interact with people in a professional type way and an educated way.

KW: And then umm, going into your senior year where you know you're about to get ready to graduate did you kind of have an idea you were gonna become work back at the community of UW-Oshkosh?

TS: I knew-- Well I when I got this degree I knew I was gonna have this job because I had got this job up on-- I was applying for it and going through the process while I was finishing. But when I was young I mean going to college, I had no idea what I was going to do. None.

KW: Yeah. So then that came later to you like towards your--

TS: Never came. Still coming. I'm kind of a person that believes that you go get 00:26:00the credential that you need so when the opportunities come that you want you can apply to them. I don't ever want to be in a situation where I'm looking at my dream job and I can't do it because I didn't get the proper credentials. I'd rather have the credentials and not know what I wanna do so when I finally do figure it out I have it.

KW: That makes sense. I was talking to Roger, the other admissions counselor, and he was telling me there was like another person that used to be in your office, he was basically he was a "Timber" before there was a "Timber."

TS: Well there was two. Two people held this position before me. One was named Quincy. Umm, and Quincy was here for seven years and then there's, actually he's one of my frat bros that I made, his name is Howard Spierman, and uhh, he's the one that actually originally started the liaison position period. Because there wasn't a liaison position for all the different cultures until later. They 00:27:00started off with the African-American liaison first.

KW: Okay. And then do you feel like you're experience as a minority at UW-Oshkosh really helps you play a role in how you recruit people of like, minorities from the inner city and keep minorities here?

TS: Absolutely. Because I get it. I'm honest with them. I tell them what you're really gonna be up against and how you can successfully maneuver through this. Umm, and I don't know if you to understand here you've had to go here. You gotta know the culture of Oshkosh or UW-Oshkosh to give the best advice for how to survive it. And uhh, I think I have a leg up because I went here. And I survived it. So I can actually give people some pretty good advice.

KW: Okay, and then uhh, how did you continue to build your popular reputation among students of color? Like when you first got the job?

TS: Umm, open door policy. It didn't matter just walk in. And, you know, say 00:28:00what you gotta say, drop what you gotta drop. And I think what I probably built my reputation on is being affective. If you come into my office with a problem I may not be able to fix it but I'm gonna get you to who can.

KW: Yeah

TS: And so, I solved a lot of-- I take on problem solving and didn't matter if it was my job or my department or whoever. The bottom line is it needed to be solved so we would go-- I would take you out and we'd be solid. It could be something as simple as getting you a tutor for a class or setting up an appointment with the counseling center or going up to Reeve Union and finding out where the jobs are. But umm, it didn't matter I would walk with you and go there. And uhh, I think students tell other students when there is affective people out there who truly care and help.

KW: Okay. And were the same resources that were available today, were they available when you were an undergraduate student?

TS: There wasn't someone like myself. Umm, but there was a department that did help so and I can't even remember what their particular name of that department 00:29:00was so there was good resources on campus. It was just like anything, you gotta use them though.

KW: Yeah. You do got to yeah.

TS: I had to get mature enough to know that I should be using them.

KW: Yeah.

TS: Umm, people don't value time enough but it's the only thing, you know, it only spins one way. So once it's spent, it's gone.

RW: Yeah

TS: You can't earn more time and you don't know how much of it you have. And when your times up you don't have anything anymore now do you. So, I have a real thing about trying to share with students and just-- bigger than students just people-- about the value of time. Time makes me angry because I don't want people to waste my time. Umm, time makes me happy when people give me their time because I know it's the most valuable resource they could give me. And I hope 00:30:00people value me when I give them my time because I can't give you anything more that's more valuable. I could give you $20 but that's gone. But my time, my time is invaluable. There is no price on time. And umm, I just don't think we, I just think young people as a whole don't put enough value on time. Or even all of us really. We just don't really think about it in the right aspects of what it is. That would be the one thing I would wanna say is just time is real and uhh, gotta value it and you gotta value when people give you their time.

RW: Okay. So uhh Timber, what has greek live done for you as an individual?

TS: Umm, I think a lot of people misunderstand greek life because if you talk to like parents and parents always ask me like you know, do you guys have fraternities and sororities and then you know they kind of get this twisted look 00:31:00on this face if they're not greek themselves cause they think it's what the movies are but you know, the whole thing of what greek life did for me was it gave me some role models, it gave me people that cared about me that guided me through college. And then afterwards, you know, after college what it did was umm, it even still continued to give me ways to network with professionals and then even job opportunities. Umm, I've had situation where I've walked into jobs and umm I'm in the interview process and they're-- I'm watching them scan my resume right there in front of me and then they stop and they go "oh, so you're a member of Alpha Phi Alpha?" and I'll go yeah, and they'll say something to me like "Oh my husband's an Alpha" or "My roommate was an alpha" or "I knew some Alpha when I went to college." And there's something to be said for that because 00:32:00you know, the divine nine is pretty prestigious in the black community to be part of.

RW: And then, at your time in Oshkosh, were the AKAs the predominate sorority for women here?

TS: Yes. During my time here. I'm not saying that's the way it always was. Cause there was a time when the Deltas were here also but during my time, uhh, there was AKAs and Sigma Gamma Rose.

RW: Okay. And then also, after talking to you earlier, you were talking about your experience when you went to see Barack Obama when he came to campus back in 2007. How was that experience for you?

TS: Uhh, that was cool because umm, it was one of those things like, i'ma be honest, I don't think Black America believed he was really gonna win. But it was still cool that he was at the point that he was the nominee. And so he came to UW-Oshkosh, and I literally told my boss at my job I was an insurance agent at 00:33:00the time and I was in the office and I just told him look man this might be the only time in history that I get to see someone who has the possibility of being a black president I'm out. And he was like go on. He let me go. And I thought that was pretty cool of him so I came to campus went through the metal detectors and it was amazing. The energy that was in the crowd like, it was wild. Like it was just so unifying is best like-- Everybody we were all on the same page in there. Like it just felt good. The vibe in there like people were, people weren't looking at me umm because I was a black man there. We were all looking at each other because it was just, like it was a great vibe. Like we couldn't believe it, and the way he spoke and the things he said. Umm, it's probably one 00:34:00of the most umm, defining moments I had an opportunity to be part of in my life.

RW: Were there any like protests outside of [inaudible]?

TS: There was no protest. There was nothing. Everybody was like, you wouldn't believe it, like, it was just this unifying thing where, you know, people just felt like he was the one. Like it was time. And people, there was all these other people and I don't wanna overstate it but I think I'm gonna be bold enough to say there was a lot of white people who felt good about being able to vote for in. And like there was this feeling in there. And I can't explain it. Umm, It was probably one of the only times I was one of the only black people in the room, which I'm used to being often, but it felt different.

RW: Yeah, especially coming from the Oshkosh community. I can only imagine.

TS: But it felt like I wasn't the only-- Like I was a giant in this room because 00:35:00there was this black who had the possibility of being president. Like it was crazy.